Electric vehicles true colours

[CompoSimmonite]

My theory is the push for electric vehicle is more to do with getting away from the reliance on the OPEC countries suppling the bulk of petrol and diesel for motive power than enviroment reasons.

 

[Wildefalcon]

Anybody got a Tesla motor and inverter spare?

It's for a kit car.

 

[indy4x]

I agree,

There is research into batteries not containing lithium, but graphene, lithium batteriy technology is the technology of 20 years ago.

From memory, the next holy grail is sodium batteries, there was a BBC science thing on the radio and they were interviewing a British scientist who worked on the development of lithium batteries, she's now focusing on Sodium

 

[thinfourth]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...MkYbOXeJdpm259MRB0BEHouhAdxfogydM2GDuA8_m-87s

I just don't understand this insanity for electric cars and building huge factories to build them in

Why can't they just grow them from seed like we do with diesel cars

 

[slimjim]

Really not, more reactive than sodium

And once it’s reacted and turned into lithium oxide, what about then?

Because it won’t be disposed of as un reacted lithium, now will it.

 

[slimjim]

My theory is the push for electric vehicle is more to do with getting away from the reliance on the OPEC countries suppling the bulk of petrol and diesel for motive power than enviroment reasons.

My favourite reason for buying, if I can ever afford one.

 

[merryman]

We're 150 years into the fossil fuel era, but 10 or so into the renewable. It's not an entirely fair comparison.
When we are 50 years into renewables then the picture becomes a lot clearer, and not just because of the lack of soot.

Oh dear, wind power hydro power and woodburners is technology thousands of years old. The first form of electrical power was from batteries. The magic better battery is always coming, but most cars still rely on a lead/acid battery for starting because it is still the most cost effective battery available. Vast amounts of money and time is being poured into electrical vehicles because governments have told manufacturers they have to. Government dictats like this rarely, if ever, end well.

 

[fizzy]

Be that as maybe, mining Lithium doesn't fill our town centres with particulates. Once the batteries have reached the end of their life in cars they can be re-purposed for static energy storage and after that I'm sure the lithium can be recovered for less pollution than mining fresh.

That article assumes power is derived from CO2 emitting power plants, which just won't be the case in the near future.

What about the energy to manufacture the cars? I'd wager building an electric vehicle causes less pollution than building an internal combustion engined one.

Britain gets more power from gas than anything else. IF there was a big push for nuclear power I would agree with it - but the so called greens wouldn't let it happen.

 

[slimjim]

Oh dear, wind power hydro power and woodburners is technology thousands of years old. The first form of electrical power was from batteries. The magic better battery is always coming, but most cars still rely on a lead/acid battery for starting because it is still the most cost effective battery available. Vast amounts of money and time is being poured into electrical vehicles because governments have told manufacturers they have to. Government dictats like this rarely, if ever, end well.

I don’t think that’s quite true, lead batteries are cheap to make and cheap to recycle, compared to other types, but it’s to heavy to use in an EV, fork lifts still use lead acid, because it counterweights the load

 

[fizzy]

My theory is the push for electric vehicle is more to do with getting away from the reliance on the OPEC countries suppling the bulk of petrol and diesel for motive power than enviroment reasons.

Once upon a time I would have agreed with you.
But now the USA has taken over from OPEC as the biggest producer because they have ignored the greens and are fracking in a big way. No longer do OPEC have us by the short and curlies!

 

[slimjim]

Britain gets more power from gas than anything else. IF there was a big push for nuclear power I would agree with it - but the so called greens wouldn't let it happen.

I thought they had passed 50% renewables, on average, and sometimes up to 100% in the summer, they have done that by using battery storage, people driving EV’s don’t generally need to charge empty to full everyday, if I had a EV with 200mile range I would be charging it every fortnight on my current use.

 

[Luke]

Here you go, live (ish) data.

http://gridwatch.co.uk/

 

[fizzy]

I thought they had passed 50% renewables, on average, and sometimes up to 100% in the summer, they have done that by using battery storage, people driving EV’s don’t generally need to charge empty to full everyday, if I had a EV with 200mile range I would be charging it every fortnight on my current use.

No absolute complete and utter nonsense!
Battery storage is a complete con.

This is the biggest one in the World in Australia - it can provide a few seconds worth of Britain's energy needs. In fact I worked it out. This would power a container ship for 1hr - yes about 20 miles! By the same token 7 IBCs of oil would last the same time.

To provide Britain with enough power to last a typical winter lull we would need 300 years worth of the whole World's battery production!

The whole thing makes my blood boil. Take away all the stupid subsidies and the politicians and nobody would ever look at these crackpot schemes.

 

[daleyd]

No absolute complete and utter nonsense!
Battery storage is a complete con.

This is the biggest one in the World in Australia - it can provide a few seconds worth of Britain's energy needs. In fact I worked it out. This would power a container ship for 1hr - yes about 20 miles! By the same token 7 IBCs of oil would last the same time.

To provide Britain with enough power to last a typical winter lull we would need 300 years worth of the whole World's battery production!

The whole thing makes my blood boil. Take away all the stupid subsidies and the politicians and nobody would ever look at these crackpot schemes.

That’s really not the point of it though is it - it’s an energy storage system not an energy source in its own right, which is what your comparing it to. It allows energy that’s made at times when it is unwanted be available at times when it is. Surely that’s a good thing, if for nothing else other than allowing the gas/oil we have already to last longer.

 

[bletchmonster]

Going to interesting in a few years seeing what the resale market of electric cars is going to like. Ebay is the obvious example. Buying a used cordless drill is a bad enough gamble.
"yeah mate, batteries got loads a life in em"
I personally think electric cars a going to be short lived vehicles, with inherent short lifespan of batteries plus consumers probable reluctance to buy secondhand.

 

[thinfourth]

Going to interesting in a few years seeing what the resale market of electric cars is going to like. Ebay is the obvious example. Buying a used cordless drill is a bad enough gamble.
"yeah mate, batteries got loads a life in em"

I was going to buy a 2nd hand leaf 2 years ago but lost my job removing the need for one

Since then i have watched the values

They have gone up

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

What about hydrogen fuel cells?

 

[bletchmonster]

I was going to buy a 2nd hand leaf 2 years ago but lost my job removing the need for one

Since then i have watched the values

They have gone up

You could be right, certainly with newer used, but will that last when they are getting a bit of age and the lower end of the market.

 

[thinfourth]

What about hydrogen fuel cells?

What is technically known as a bloody stupid idea

You get hydrogen from 2 sources

Source 1 = You put a shedload of electricity into some oil and crack out some hydrogen

Source 2 = You put a shedload of electricity into some water and get some hydrogen

Both have a common issue

But ignoring those minor issues lets get onto distribution

To distribute fossil fuels we use the petrol stations which have the following things


Underground tanks
Petrol pumps
Road tankera to get the fuel there
Ships to get the fuel to the road tankers
&
A shop

The things that can be reused with no changes are

The shop

The rest need completely changing around

BUT ignoring that

How a fuel cell actually works is it takes the hydrogen then using some precious metals combines it with Oxygen to produce electrity

Which is used to charge the onboard battery which is used to turn the wheels


So in summary

Hydrogen fuel cells are a really crap way to recharge an electric car

 

[fizzy]

That’s really not the point of it though is it - it’s an energy storage system not an energy source in its own right, which is what your comparing it to. It allows energy that’s made at times when it is unwanted be available at times when it is. Surely that’s a good thing, if for nothing else other than allowing the gas/oil we have already to last longer.

But it only stores energy for seconds - IF there was a way of storing all that wind power I would be all in favour of it - but sadly there isn't!