ISO 9001

[fizzy]

Wondering if anyone here has been through this or assisted anyone with it?

Some people are telling me it will cost 10K - but I have had a few quotes around £2k - am I likely to be stung with lots of hidden extras?

My personal opinion of it - it is a load of sh1* - but some of our customers require it.

 

[TechnicAl]

Wondering if anyone here has been through this or assisted anyone with it?

Some people are telling me it will cost 10K - but I have had a few quotes around £2k - am I likely to be stung with lots of hidden extras?

My personal opinion of it - it is a load of sh1* - but some of our customers require it.

Thats a bad start...you need to want to do it......its based on common sense and good practice

 

[fizzy]

Thats a bad start...you need to want to do it......its based on common sense and good practice

Ok perhaps that was a bit strong but does ISO9001 actually make you into a better company? Or is it more a paperwork exercise? If it does make you better then it is worth having. I am always prepared to learn if it actually improves things!

I like to think we do use common sense and use good practice. Or at least we try.

We use companies who don't have it and they are often better than the bigger boys who do have it.

The USA aren't very big on it - but the Italians think it is wonderful - do their companies perform better?

List of top countries with ISO 9001 companies

1. China: 297,037 (+39,961)
2. Italy: 138,892 (+8,826)
3. Russian Federation: 62265 (+9,113)
4. Spain: 59,854 (-278)
5. Japan: 59,287 (-9,197)
6. Germany: 50,583 (3,427)
7. United Kingdom: 44,849 (3,656)
8. India: 33,250 (-4,243)
9. USA: 25,101 (-3,834)
10. Republic of Korea: 24,778 (+1,378)

 

[jimi_boom]

I work for an ISO 9001 accredited company, we are a medium sized company with around 45 employees, I run the engineering department so have to get involved writing the procedures and ensuring people adhere to them.

The idea behind ISO 9001 is to put in place good practices and control measures, it makes sure you have covered lots of areas though out the business not just H&S and Quality.

do you already have a quality management system in place or will you be starting from scratch?

I would suggest you have a discussion with a Lloyds inspector who is likely to come in to do the audit. They may even come out and visit you but I'm not sure about that.

I would say that it is worth doing as you are showing to potential customers that you have a robust system in place that they can have confidence in.

I cant however tell you how much it costs as our quality manager deals with that side of things.

 

[addjunkie]

My opinion of it...."it demonstrates you have systems and processes in place. It doesnt mean they are good, or followed particularly well"

 

[pressbrake1]

I do work for a iso company. They even got pulled up because they had a scrap machine in their yard which was kept for parts. I suppose using used spares is non pc and other daft things.
It’s all part of the package, some of it is sensible, even good and other bits were obviously written by people not from the real world

 

[pedrobedro]

I worked for a firm that was iso certified. They had to have it as it other firms who had it said they would only trade with other holders of the same certification. We had to be trained to do what we had been doing for years and the only difference we noticed was everything had to have a piece of paper following it round to tell what you had been done. In my opinion it is just the world's biggest chain letter or pyramid scheme designed to make money for the scheme starters. The couple who came to train us were on 10 times our pay per day.

 

[fizzy]

I worked for a firm that was iso certified. They had to have it as it other firms who had it said they would only trade with other holders of the same certification. We had to be trained to do what we had been doing for years and the only difference we noticed was everything had to have a piece of paper following it round to tell what you had been done. In my opinion it is just the world's biggest chain letter or pyramid scheme designed to make money for the scheme starters. The couple who came to train us were on 10 times our pay per day.

My feelings exactly.
And as long as you tick boxes then you get the cert.
If we go through this procedure and if it makes us a better company then I don't mind.
Time will tell.

 

[Robotstar5]

Being in the automotive industry we have to comply with IATF 16949, it normally takes the audit team of 3 the best part of a week to process our building alone.

 

[Parm]

It’s like any system in the world. It’s only as good as the written procedures and then only as good as the people who use it and the training they’ve had on it

It can work both ways. If set up, used and applied correctly it can bring benefits, but you’ll need a change in culture which can be difficult to achieve.

If it’s just a tick box excercise for clients benefit it will be a PITA to manage and keep running

 

[Seadog]

If your procedures say your going to do X, Y and Z and produce a crappy end result, you'll get accreditation as long as you follow your procedures to the letter.

 

[Bladevane]

A tip for those striving to achieve any accreditation - Never say you will do things you have no intention of doing.

 

[jimi_boom]

All of the above comments above about having crappy systems will get you an accreditation but that is not the point of ISO 9001.

With ISO 9001 accreditation comes the responsibility of developing your own QMS (quality management system) so that you can prove to your customers that you have good working practices.

If a customer wants to work with ISO 9001 accredited companies they will come and do there own site audit and if they find that your not actually working within your own approved QMS system then they will no longer trade with you.

As mentioned earlier its designed to be a tool that allows you to develop your business and show improvements at every audit with Lloyds.

It is worth bearing in mind that if you have no current QMS but have some very broad process in place that is a good starting point but Lloyds will expect to see you develop these and progress over time, You will also always get minor non conformances which shows that Lloyds are doing a proper check of things. They cant check everything all the time either but again this is supposed to be a process that you want to work towards and to develop your own business.

If you are starting out it will take several visits before accreditation is granted and during each visit you will be give a list of things to develop. Some auditors are helpful and will give a lot of guidance on how to improve.

Sorry for the waffle

 

[TechnicAl]

Ok perhaps that was a bit strong but does ISO9001 actually make you into a better company? Or is it more a paperwork exercise? If it does make you better then it is worth having. I am always prepared to learn if it actually improves things!

I like to think we do use common sense and use good practice. Or at least we try.

We use companies who don't have it and they are often better than the bigger boys who do have it.

The USA aren't very big on it - but the Italians think it is wonderful - do their companies perform better?

List of top countries with ISO 9001 companies

1. China: 297,037 (+39,961)
2. Italy: 138,892 (+8,826)
3. Russian Federation: 62265 (+9,113)
4. Spain: 59,854 (-278)
5. Japan: 59,287 (-9,197)
6. Germany: 50,583 (3,427)
7. United Kingdom: 44,849 (3,656)
8. India: 33,250 (-4,243)
9. USA: 25,101 (-3,834)
10. Republic of Korea: 24,778 (+1,378)

 

[TechnicAl]

I believe it helps YOU make it a better comonay. It instills discipline. It makes you do things especially keep records so you can trace back and investigate. Its not all paperwork...you decide whats best for you...the ISO only makes you think.

The USA does things differently to us. They have a more litigous system but they have different rules. For example in welding they have pre-prepared welding procedures which if complied it rule out your need to do tests. I only know welding but their AWS is much more of a legal document that our BS/ EN / ISO is. You can use ISO as a reference but AWS can be used as defence in a legal case.

When they had the earthqualke in California both AWS and Lincoln were sued for millions. Lincoln supplied the consummables that met the standard but the Lawyers made a case for the standard being wrong and won so automatically got compensation. That wouldnt have happened with ISO as they would have had to prove negligence.

I believe it was born in the UK. There was a Navy document called DEF STAN 05-24 I believe which became BS5750 which became ISO 9000 / 9001 etc. Once upon a time you had to be registered with the Admiralty to the DEF STAN to get any Naval Shipyard work. I installed all the systems etc to comply back in 1979 and then later also got us registered to BS5750.....It made a big difference and a lot of people, the MD included, thought like you did....just more work.....but when they started seeing less scrap, less complaints etc etc....and a monetary value....they began to appreciate it.

 

[500e]

We ran BS 5750 \ ISO9000 for years due to 3 major customers requiring it, 2 went to a Co that was cheaper but no Accreditation,
We asked how this was possible & were told they are cheaper, .
We found it did help internally but was a time consuming exercise.
The original setup Assessor wrote War & Peace as our manual. After sitting him down & saying what do we require as a basic? the story was reduced to a small paperback, also remember the on going audit cost.
As @jimi_boom says some assessors are helpful others !!
It does not mean the Co is any good just that it conformes to the manual.
Some of the worst Co we dealt with were the people who wanted BS\ISO, incorrect delivery's & late payment for any work done for them.

 

[fizzy]

All of the above comments above about having crappy systems will get you an accreditation but that is not the point of ISO 9001.

With ISO 9001 accreditation comes the responsibility of developing your own QMS (quality management system) so that you can prove to your customers that you have good working practices.

If a customer wants to work with ISO 9001 accredited companies they will come and do there own site audit and if they find that your not actually working within your own approved QMS system then they will no longer trade with you.

As mentioned earlier its designed to be a tool that allows you to develop your business and show improvements at every audit with Lloyds.

It is worth bearing in mind that if you have no current QMS but have some very broad process in place that is a good starting point but Lloyds will expect to see you develop these and progress over time, You will also always get minor non conformances which shows that Lloyds are doing a proper check of things. They cant check everything all the time either but again this is supposed to be a process that you want to work towards and to develop your own business.

If you are starting out it will take several visits before accreditation is granted and during each visit you will be give a list of things to develop. Some auditors are helpful and will give a lot of guidance on how to improve.

Sorry for the waffle

We have plenty of our own systems in place which keep evolving.

You mention Lloyds - do they oversea the whole thing? Is it the same Lloyds as the insurance?

 

[TechnicAl]

We have plenty of our own systems in place which keep evolving.

You mention Lloyds - do they oversea the whole thing? Is it the same Lloyds as the insurance?

Its LRS....Lloyds Register of Shipping which is linked to Lloyds Insurance.....Once upon a time Lloyds wouldnt insure a ship unless it had been built in accordance with the LRS rules....this is where approved welding consumables originated.....the Navy were the same but their rules were different and in addition the Navy wanted to see QC systems in place.....Every ship building country had at least one, DNV was Norway, BV was French, GL was German, ABS was American etc etc.

LRS will help you but they dont do it for you. Most firms usually employ a consultant or someone on a short term contract.

 

[no idea]

If you don't think it will add any value then question the customer to understand what risks etc. they believe are being addressed by using an ISO9001 accredited supplier. If you already have your key processes documented and regularly update them then producing the quality management system shouldn't be too hard. BSI and others can do the accreditation which is probably where you are getting the differences in costs from.

Where I work we went through the process of documenting processes and standardising ways of working which worked wonders for consistency and quality. It also helped new starters understand how to do things and created a good way to get improvements implemented. However, after 5 years, we have decided not to maintain our accreditation because various teams are saying the quality management system is too restrictive and prevents innovation and improvement. I think this is a case of a break being needed to test out a few alternative ways of working and if they don't turn out to be better after a year or so we will probably reintroduce the QMS and work to get accredited again.

 

[indy4x]

My opinion of it...."it demonstrates you have systems and processes in place. It doesnt mean they are good, or followed particularly well"

That made me chuckle, was in a meeting with some guys who have got ISO certification and they were thinking they were golden until I pointed out the above