Unbraked Trailers in Agriculture

[rcx132]

They are not type approved for 750kg trailers.

Check the unbraked trailer weights on V5 section O1.

Your licence allows up to 750 kg.
The car might limit it to less.
They amount less is based on real weights not plate weights.

Old cars are. The little SJ413 I just bought weighs 900kg and has a plated train weight of 2.5 tonnes! What we're manufacturers thinking back then?

Anyone remember the video of a little Fiat being pulled backwards down a hill by a big caravan? I reckon that Fiat was within its plated limits as even big caravans weigh less than a tonne and those old cars had silly high limits.

 

[rtcosic]

They are not type approved for 750kg trailers.

Check the unbraked trailer weights on V5 section O1.

Your licence allows up to 750 kg.
The car might limit it to less.
They amount less is based on real weights not plate weights.

The 'pre 96' rule (?) makes things interesting as well:
The family fleet includes Mk1 & 2 MX5s and a Series III Land Rover.

Mk 1 MX5 is pre 96 and so has no manufacturer's recommended towing limit. So tow bars are listed. It has one and can legally tow an un-braked 750kg trailer as that is less than 85% of the tow vehicle guideline (At least I think it's legal!)
Mk 2 - which is the same body in white - has no declared towing limit so cannot tow at all.
Even more calamitously its declared maximum gross weight is only 130 kg more than its declared kerb weight! So put 2 normal six foot plus sons in it and its overweight. Put one son and small girl friend in it and its over weight. Put one son and a week's shopping in it and.....you get the picture.

How did Mazda do something so daft? Because the EU standard passenger for emissions testing is deemed to be 65kg with no luggage allowance. So Mazda just used 2*65kg as the maximum load, assuming it was some pointless bit of bureaucracy.

The Series Land Rover is terrifying. With its original 8" drums the hand book gives the maximum towing weight as 4.25 TONS.

When looking at a possible shopping trolley for SWAMBO I thought it might be useful to use it for the tip runs. The first few I checked had zero towing limit. Most sports cars have zero. I don't know of an electric vehicle with a manufacturer declared towing limit yet.

So lots of guidance from Justme will still be needed in the future!

 

[Tinbasherdan]

The 'pre 96' rule (?) makes things interesting as well:
The family fleet includes Mk1 & 2 MX5s and a Series III Land Rover.

Mk 1 MX5 is pre 96 and so has no manufacturer's recommended towing limit. So tow bars are listed. It has one and can legally tow an un-braked 750kg trailer as that is less than 85% of the tow vehicle guideline (At least I think it's legal!)
Mk 2 - which is the same body in white - has no declared towing limit so cannot tow at all.
Even more calamitously its declared maximum gross weight is only 130 kg more than its declared kerb weight! So put 2 normal six foot plus sons in it and its overweight. Put one son and small girl friend in it and its over weight. Put one son and a week's shopping in it and.....you get the picture.

How did Mazda do something so daft? Because the EU standard passenger for emissions testing is deemed to be 65kg with no luggage allowance. So Mazda just used 2*65kg as the maximum load, assuming it was some pointless bit of bureaucracy.

The Series Land Rover is terrifying. With its original 8" drums the hand book gives the maximum towing weight as 4.25 TONS.

When looking at a possible shopping trolley for SWAMBO I thought it might be useful to use it for the tip runs. The first few I checked had zero towing limit. Most sports cars have zero. I don't know of an electric vehicle with a manufacturer declared towing limit yet.

So lots of guidance from Justme will still be needed in the future!

You think the series is terrifying now, have a go at driving a piglet. Standard landrover rubbish brakes, with a load of armour on top!

 

[Bill Edwards]

They get away with it until there's a serious accident and VOSA inspect the vehicle and the driver faces jail time.

Exactly. Thankfully that's pretty rare but when something does happen it's taken seriously.
Often it isn't the fault of the driver that the outfit is not legal, they get told to take that tractor and trailer to xyz and that's it. Kick off about weight limits, lights and condition of the brakes and expect to be replaced with someone who just does as told.

 

[Bill Edwards]

Series LR brakes start at 10" and are actually adequate when working correctly.
However, they do need to be set up correctly and are susceptible to fade on long downhill runs so you need to use engine braking instead.

 

[8ob]

They are having a major clamp down on tractors around here, loads of builders, landscapers and tree surgeons have been using them for moving kit about as a cheap alternative to running a truck. Local plod are not very clued up but traffic plod are and thats when it all goes very wrong.

Bob

 

[Gareth J]

Frankly, regardless of the legislation, be sensible and assess the risks yourself.

The rod operated outboard drum brakes on an old TE20 were never great. Add in 60+ years of wear and some oil contamination or brake fade and they might as well be for decorative purposes. Pootling with an unbraked trailer between fields with some fencing gear in, sure, the risks are tiny. Fetching something heavy by road you need good brakes that work on more than just two wheels.

Similarly with your John Deere, think about it sensibly, does it have auto engaging 4wd when braking? This makes a huge difference when slowing down and I don't think it's even considered in the legislature.

Early trailer brakes for tractors without a brake coupling were fitted with a normal spool valve coupler. Pretty much binary in operation and not great in an emergency but did allowed you to not "run away" down hills

 

[Bill Edwards]

But they can (usually) get away with running on red diesel, no weight limits, zero tax, cheap insurance, no mot and perhaps more.

It sure isn't always legal and it isn't always right, but when you add up the numbers there's a fortune to be saved over running trucks/vans etc even if they aren't having to use a tacho and operator license.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

My 1977 John Deere 2130 is 2WD and about 70HP, it has no trailer braking functionality.
The 3 ton trailer is a standard Ferguson type design, A frame, tipping ram, solid axle and although it does have braked hubs these are only connected to a parking brake.
I use this combo to travel the 6 miles on A roads to the local quarry to collect 3 tons of scalpings that I use in gateways and track creation.
All up train weight I guess is around 7.5 tonnes* with just engine and rear wheel braking on the tractor.
Is it a legal combination?


*Tractor 3000kg
Loader and bucket 750kg
Trailer 750kg
Scalping 3000kg

 

[8ob]

My 1977 John Deere 2130 is 2WD and about 70HP, it has no trailer braking functionality.

You just connect the single line hydraulics on the trailer to one of the hydraulic connectors on the tractor. A single acting ram applies the trailer brakes when you pull the lever in the cab. This is how it was before the days of coupled brakes, one hand on the lever while applying the footbrake so you effectively become the abs and proportioning valve .

Bob

 

[Gareth J]

I think the parking brake on that trailer will be just a cable operated system?

The 2130 was a fantastic tractor in its day and still very usable. Although things have moved on a bit in terms of driver comfort.

I don't know what the regs say but that you're asking suggests you might be a bit worried about how effectively it stops. The quarry here will deliver 16T loads of stone for less than the cost of rigging up brakes on a trailer...

 

[rcx132]

The 'pre 96' rule (?) makes things interesting as well:
The family fleet includes Mk1 & 2 MX5s and a Series III Land Rover.

Mk 1 MX5 is pre 96 and so has no manufacturer's recommended towing limit. So tow bars are listed. It has one and can legally tow an un-braked 750kg trailer as that is less than 85% of the tow vehicle guideline (At least I think it's legal!)
Mk 2 - which is the same body in white - has no declared towing limit so cannot tow at all.
Even more calamitously its declared maximum gross weight is only 130 kg more than its declared kerb weight! So put 2 normal six foot plus sons in it and its overweight. Put one son and small girl friend in it and its over weight. Put one son and a week's shopping in it and.....you get the picture.

How did Mazda do something so daft? Because the EU standard passenger for emissions testing is deemed to be 65kg with no luggage allowance. So Mazda just used 2*65kg as the maximum load, assuming it was some pointless bit of bureaucracy.

The Series Land Rover is terrifying. With its original 8" drums the hand book gives the maximum towing weight as 4.25 TONS.

When looking at a possible shopping trolley for SWAMBO I thought it might be useful to use it for the tip runs. The first few I checked had zero towing limit. Most sports cars have zero. I don't know of an electric vehicle with a manufacturer declared towing limit yet.

So lots of guidance from Justme will still be needed in the future!

Does the Mk1 not have the GTW on the Vin plate? That determines your tow limit.

Is the Mk2 post 1997? Maybe they just thought a car like that wouldn't be used for towing and doesn't warrant the extra approval.

That's silly with the 130 kg limit. It should at least allow the seats to be filled plus baggage.

The 85% rule isn't a rule. Its a guideline made by the caravan club or someone like that.

 

[colnerov]

Hi, Kerbweight is usually defined as vehicle, all fluids, full tank of fuel and 75kgs of driver. The 130kgs of payload is for passenger/s and cargo.

Colin

 

[8ob]

I think the parking brake on that trailer will be just a cable operated system?

The 2130 was a fantastic tractor in its day and still very usable. Although things have moved on a bit in terms of driver comfort.

Its still easy to convert to hydraulic, one of the kits below will fit on the handbrake lever or on the pull mechanism .

 

[Bill Edwards]

My 1977 John Deere 2130 is 2WD and about 70HP, it has no trailer braking functionality.
The 3 ton trailer is a standard Ferguson type design, A frame, tipping ram, solid axle and although it does have braked hubs these are only connected to a parking brake.
I use this combo to travel the 6 miles on A roads to the local quarry to collect 3 tons of scalpings that I use in gateways and track creation.
All up train weight I guess is around 7.5 tonnes* with just engine and rear wheel braking on the tractor.
Is it a legal combination?


*Tractor 3000kg
Loader and bucket 750kg
Trailer 750kg
Scalping 3000kg

I think that the answer is no, but sadly I cannot remember the details of the law. I think that you'll find the trailer brakes will have done more than just allow it to park, but any trace of the rest of the system can be long gone.
Sometimes 'trailer braking' was the driver turning round and pulling a lever set high enough on the drawbar to reach.

The thing is, if you have decent tractor brakes and drive to the conditions and use the engine to slow you on hills then your outfit is quite safe - but sadly there's no provision in law for careful drivers to make up for equipment which isn't technically legal.

 

[rcx132]

Hi, Kerbweight is usually defined as vehicle, all fluids, full tank of fuel and 75kgs of driver. The 130kgs of payload is for passenger/s and cargo.

Colin

I find the quoted weights are not accurate so I take my car to the local dump on a full tank and ask them to weigh it. Ive had my trailer weighed as well so with that info you can find trailer load limits.

My new car has 4000 kg train limit
It weighs 1800kg with full tank
Me and my dog weigh 100 kg
Trailer weighs 400 kg
So that leaves 1700 kg i can put on my trailer.

 

[rtcosic]

Does the Mk1 not have the GTW on the Vin plate?

No.

Is the Mk2 post 1997? Maybe they just thought a car like that wouldn't be used for towing and doesn't warrant the extra approval.

Yes it is post 1997. Yes, I assumed that they saw no added value in assessing it for towing.

That's silly with the 130 kg limit. It should at least allow the seats to be filled plus baggage.

Quite. It should aslo assume a 95th percentile male - something nearer 100kg per pax.

The 85% rule isn't a rule. Its a guideline made by the caravan club or someone like that.

I know, hence my comment about our resident true expert. I think the 85% guideline has a rather more robust source than the Caravan Club though

 

[rtcosic]

Hi, Kerbweight is usually defined as vehicle, all fluids, full tank of fuel and 75kgs of driver. The 130kgs of payload is for passenger/s and cargo.

Colin

The VIN plate quotes only 2 weights (or mass if you want accuracy)
They differ by precisely 130kg.

I cannot now recall the labels associated with these masses and the car is 300 miles away.

 

[rcx132]

No.



Yes it is post 1997. Yes, I assumed that they saw no added value in assessing it for towing.



Quite. It should aslo assume a 95th percentile male - something nearer 100kg per pax.



I know, hence my comment about our resident true expert. I think the 85% guideline has a rather more robust source than the Caravan Club though

I'm really curious about the Vin plate on this car then, it doesn't seem to be standard. It's not an import or something?

I don't know about the 85% rule, if you think that most Land Rovers weight I guess 2 tonnes and frequently pull plant rigs weighing 3.5T that puts them twice over the 85% limit. I'm guessing this is a guideline for amateur caravaners really.

 

[zeppelin builder]

They get away with it until there's a serious accident and VOSA inspect the vehicle and the driver faces jail time.

Few years back we had 2 you ng farmers racing with laden trailers round a long sweeping bend and ended up a head on with a white van needles to saay carnage or how about the 80 ish guy who helping out in harvest time stops in the fast lane of a bit of dual carriageway on the A9 to have a pee no lights on trailer dusk multiple carnage
A good while they got away with converted artic trailers too
No wonder the small truck guys were up in arms red diesel and cheap tax
Farmers really are a law until themselves