Yet another spool gun question. (long)

[nikos]

Ok,

I've a mig welder, a Stayer 165 multi. Mig, Tig and arc.
This was the only European (non-china) welder I could find here in my price range...

Stayer 165 Multi

Welder has a spoolgun connector (4 pin GX160/Aircraft).
Anyway the machine migs and arc welds real well...

After a lot of hassling the national rep (idiot), I got the pinouts of the spoolgun connector.

Welder has a mig/spool gun switch and a weld process select touch switch on the panel

Here's the details from them

-----------------

Pin 1: Switch
Pin 2 : Switch
Pin 3: Motor power supply, Negative (-)
Pin 4: Motor power supply, Positive (+)

Torch motor 28Vdc
-----------------

The welder has a Euro connector on the mig side, gas inlet, and internal gas valve (for mig) but no external gas valve hookup (for the sg).

My questions are:

1. AFAIU, a "generic" spoolgun connects to a welder's dinse plug and takes the ~ 24VDC out of the machine, into the spool gun which controls (via a pot on the gun itself) the wire-feed.

2. AFAIU, Some others control wire-feed from the welder.

If the first, why are there pin1 and pin2 (the switch) available on the connector?
If the second, maybe to have the spool gun's wire feed rate controlled from the welder's wire feed pot

If so, then it's probably for using a Euro connector spoolgun, and as above control wire feed and the gas from the welder?

Maybe, maybe maybe.... Maybe I have all this wrong

IMHO, I would like to keep the Euro mig gun intact, and the spool gun separate. I probaly would have to add a 3way gas solenoid in the welder and switch it to either the mig gun or the added external gas valve hook up

Stayer do not even show a spoolgun in their catalogue...sheesh..
would appreciate any insight...

nick out,

 

[eddie49]

I guess that Pins 1 & 2 connect to the trigger switch on the spool gun and allow that switch to mimic the action of the Eurotorch trigger - i.e. turn on the arc, the gas, and the wirefeed.
Pins 3 & 4 may be a steady 24v DC, or they may be regulated by the welder's wirefeed pot. Since the control of speed will be by pulse-width modulation, a digital voltmeter may indicate the full voltage even if the speed control on the welder front panel is turned down. If you wired 2 x 12v 5W bulbs in series to Pins 3 & 4 that would show if it was controlled or not.

 

[hotponyshoes]

If you only have one gas inlet then you'll need a spool gun with a euro connection to feed gas to the gun.

 

[8ob]

Its going to need a + and - for the roller feed and a switchline back to the machine to energise the relay for power and gas.

Bob

 

[nikos]

Thank you all for the replies,

I will do as Eddie said and check whether pin 3 and 4 have constant 24V or if it is variable via the wire-feed pot.
Waiting on a connector for the plug to avoid shorting things out.

hotponyshoes, "If you only have one gas inlet then you'll need a spool gun with a euro connection to feed gas to the gun."
There's one gas inlet in the back of the machine, I'm guessing you mean gas outlet in the front panel?

As said, I would like to keep the Euro mig hooked up permanently, and use the spool gun separate when needed...

The issue I see is that even if I add an external gas connection (Quick Coupler), by "Teeing" into the machine gas supply after its internal solenoid I could get this to work BUT I think gas would still flow out of the Euro mig gun??

So,

1. either mount a manual gas valve on the panel (ugh)

2. IF pin 3 and 4 have constant 24V, use a pneumatic 24vdc monostable pneumatic valve, energized by tapping into pin 3 and 4 (which I need to verify they get power only when the sg panel switch is toggled)

3.IF pin 3 and 4 have variable voltage, then tap into the main 24vdc supply and add a switch to toggle the valve between mig and spool..

First I need to verify the machine is out of warranty

Ranting here...
I think it is pitiful that manufacturers don't work this stuff out and provide it, even as an option. Case in point is the lift tig capability that most of these mig-multi machines that force you to use a manually valved tig torch (the damn gas valve is already in there).
See where I'm going with this....
I have 2 tig torches with a switch on them, I don't need another torch.

Both of my 20 year old MMA/TIG machines, one HF one Lift initiate arc starting via the torch switch.

rant over...

thanx again,
nick

 

[carbon]

What are you looking to weld with the spool gun?

 

[nikos]

Try my hand at aluminum, ss and silicon bronze brazing for the one-off jobs, maybe retiring the oa gas setup. Using the SG allows for experimenting with the small, more affordable spools without always changing the main steel mig wire that's more or less permanent in the welder, thus the reason for this whole thread...

regards,
nick

 

[hotponyshoes]

Thank you all for the replies,

I will do as Eddie said and check whether pin 3 and 4 have constant 24V or if it is variable via the wire-feed pot.

I would expect it to be variable. If not you will have to make sure the pot fitted in the spool gun is capable of controlling the motor. Most of them are low wattage and only used for a signal current. If it melts and shorts it could damage the welder. You would also need to re'-wire it as they don't normally connect to the motor. Just 3 wires running back to the plug. (Nowhere to connect them on the socket you have)
I expect the socket voltage comes from the same place as the internal wire feed motor. Can you find a wiring diagram?
Hopefully putting it into spoolgun mode switches the supply from one to the other. Not just turns off the internal motor or something. Otherwise, if you want to leave both connected, they'll both run at the same time.

Waiting on a connector for the plug to avoid shorting things out.

hotponyshoes, "If you only have one gas inlet then you'll need a spool gun with a euro connection to feed gas to the gun."
There's one gas inlet in the back of the machine, I'm guessing you mean gas outlet in the front panel?

As said, I would like to keep the Euro mig hooked up permanently, and use the spool gun separate when needed...

The issue I see is that even if I add an external gas connection (Quick Coupler), by "Teeing" into the machine gas supply after its internal solenoid I could get this to work BUT I think gas would still flow out of the Euro mig gun??

So,

1. either mount a manual gas valve on the panel (ugh)

2. IF pin 3 and 4 have constant 24V, use a pneumatic 24vdc monostable pneumatic valve, energized by tapping into pin 3 and 4 (which I need to verify they get power only when the sg panel switch is toggled)

3.IF pin 3 and 4 have variable voltage, then tap into the main 24vdc supply and add a switch to toggle the valve between mig and spool..

First I need to verify the machine is out of warranty

Yes, if its designed to run the spool gun from the euro socket gas will come out of the mig torch when using the spool gun.
If its in warranty you have a few options,
1, External gas solonide (or manual valve) for the spool gun. Find a solonide with a coil with a wide voltage range, piggy-back both power and switching from the 4p socket.
You'll have to turn off the mig gas when using the SG.
2, make up an adaptor to sit between the euro socket and the mig torch. You can then take both power and gas for the SG from that. You'll need a tap/valve to shut off the mig gun gas. Use a stop quick-connect for the SG.
3, see if the gas pipe is accessible inside the mig wire door. Fit a quick connector to the back of the Euro connector. When you want to use the spool gun just open the door and plug it in. (Probably technically breaks the warranty but would be reversible and hard to tell you had ever done it!)

But, bear in mind, you will probably want different gas for use with the spool gun anyway. An external option would mean you could leave the mig bottle permanently connected rather than swapping gas bottles over as well.

If warranty is not an issue I'd fit a second set of inlet/solonide/outlet into the welder.
You might even be able to switch between them using the mig/spoolgun mode somehow.
Trigger off the 4p switch pins then you could use the same solonide for tig and save buying a new torch.

I think it is pitiful that manufacturers don't work this stuff out and provide it, even as an option.

Some do. I've got a welder that has a separate gas inlet for a spool gun. Recognises the gun automatically when plugged in, sets itself up etc.
But then I've also got another 'multiprocess' machine that uses the euro connection for the Tig torch and they charge 400 for the torch to fit it!
Basically, if you want/need particular features check for them before buying as very few offer any (affordable) hardware upgrades post purchase.

Case in point is the lift tig capability that most of these mig-multi machines that force you to use a manually valved tig torch (the damn gas valve is already in there).
See where I'm going with this....
I have 2 tig torches with a switch on them, I don't need another torch.

Both of my 20 year old MMA/TIG machines, one HF one Lift initiate arc starting via the torch switch.

rant over...

thanx again,
nick

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

The question you need to ask yourself is:

• Is the convenience of not having to chance torches, actually going to repay the time, money and energy you invest in heavily customising your spool gun and welder to allow both types of torch to be connected at once?

• If you will be switching back and forth all the time, would it actually be more cost effective to just buy an inexpensive welder second hand, and leave it hooked up to a euro-torch spool gun and the appropriate gas?

 

[carbon]

Try my hand at aluminum

Is the welder suitable for welding aluminium? Aluminium mig welding below 3mm isn’t very practical without pulse then the welder ideally needs to be capable of spray transfer rather than short circuit transfer. For me I find 4mm and below is much easier to do with ac tig.

 

[nikos]

Ok all,
Thanx again you gave me alot of food for thought...
I'll keep you informed, lets see what I measure up and see. ATM it's 40*C here... Gin Tonics are more priority..

tx,
nick

 

[nikos]

Hi again,

Well I got a chance to get the 4 pin GX160/Aircraft plug and wired it to the machine.

1. I got a 10VDC on one pair of wires, 1,2
2. Nothing on the other pair, 3.4
(numbers depend on whether looking at the receptacle, or the plug, not clarified in the original mail from them).

3. Also wired up a pair of bulbs, as per eddie49, for naught...

4. Shorting the "dead" wires does nothing.

5. Shorting the 10vdc pair, switches something inside the machine, the gas valve, or "contactor" or both (need to open machine)

6. This switching only occurs when the machine is in mig mode, spoolgun switch on, or and 0.8 flux core selected.
If 1.0mm flux-core is selected, the switch does not toggle the internals

6. Neither does it do anything in Lift tig mode of MMA (unfortunately, as expected)

7. Playing with the WF/amp or Volt pot does nothing

8. Checking voltage on the dinse shows a steady 62VDC or so, and does not change when the WF or the voltage pot is fiddled.

I might try a gmail account to contact Stayer directly as using my greek email they forward it to Greek sales rep who is clueless.
Waiting for a reply from the shop I bought it from WRT to the warrantee, some sites say 2 years, some nothing.

anyway, thoughts welcome...

PS Anyone ever deal with Stayer in the UK?

 

[hotponyshoes]

Short 1 & 2.
While keeping them shorted measure for voltage accross 3 & 4.

Turn on the gas and see if gas comes out the mig torch when 1 & 2 are shorted.

Try pulling the mig torch trigger when it's in spool gun mode. Does that do the same thing as shorting 1 & 2?

 

[nikos]

"Short 1 & 2. While keeping them shorted measure for voltage across 3 & 4."
Did this and nothing

"Turn on the gas and see if gas comes out the mig torch when 1 & 2 are shorted."
Will do...

"Try pulling the mig torch trigger when it's in spool gun mode. Does that do the same thing as shorting 1 & 2?"

Again, will do....

nick out
BTW, I contacted the seller (not Stayer), he insists that the machine will not weld aluminum. I explained why it should and why then should the machine have a sg connector? He will get back to me...

 

[hotponyshoes]

"Short 1 & 2. While keeping them shorted measure for voltage across 3 & 4."
Did this and nothing

That's a problem then as you need voltage on 3&4 to drive a spool gun motor.
Make sure it is in spool gun mode when testing.
Also, if it is a synergic machine, you may need to set it into manual mode rather than a senergic program. There may even be a spoolgun program as well?

 

[nikos]

Tx for your time. Welder has a membrane switch cycling through weld process. Spool is selected by simple toggle switch, Mig/Spool, that's all. I dont know what the "32 bit processor" is doing. Will open welder as I'm suspicious there is nothing connected to pins 3 ,4

 

[hotponyshoes]

To save opening the machine you could use a multi meter and see if there is any resistance accross 3&4