Workshop condensation - stop machines rusting!

[astro_al]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think building mini-rooms, or only using part is a no-go. Its pretty full already, if you include the tables etc, and its only getting fuller!

One half is devoted to forging, the other to fabrication and its not as big as it looks when you get some kit in there!

So I think my best option is to try to seal the drafts as best I can, stop the bloomin roof dripping - which presumably ups the moisture content of the air - try to insulate where possible and maybe run the mini-heaters around the place.

I wonder if I could generate the power for that for free...? Hmmm.

Ta, Al.

 

[rtcosic]

I wonder if I could generate the power for that for free...? Hmmm.

Ta, Al.

I wonder if you could make something like this

 

[English Steve]

The roof can be coated inside to stop condensation forming and dripping. There are proprietary brand products sold for this purpose, or you could do what I did and paint it with white underseal.
A false ceiling would be too expensive over that scale, but is another option. It's always difficult when you are renting premises as it's dead money if you make that kind of investment.

 

[stormin]

One half is devoted to forging, the other to fabrication and its not as big as it looks when you get some kit in there!

Ta, Al.

Thr forging operation may be you biggest problem, generating lots of heat in a small area and lots of moisture given off from burning of gas. Try and ventilate more whilst the forge is on or seperate from the machines.

 

[Drains]

A big woodburner would help. I presume your forge is gas powered so that'll be punting out the moisture. You're bugg3red with that then.

You can spray the machines with protective oils etc -lots of options here. They are mostly used for protecting gear in storage, then cleaned off before use, as they can stay a bit sticky/greasy/waxy and may collect dust or get on you.
However there are some products which dry off. Don't ask me which ones, you need to check out the data sheets. They can be applied with one of those pump-up garden spray pots, or similar (if they don't come in a pressurised can)

 

[astro_al]

Hi guys, Steve - thats exactly right. I already put nearly 4k into concreting the place for the owner...

RT - Great idea! I wonder if I could cobble something together out of cheap materials???

Stormin - you might be right, technically, but the forge wasn't running last year when I had the big problems with condensation, nor when I've seen it in the last week or so.

The forge is a proper coke forge (coal) there is a 10" flue to take the crap outside, but anyway, its not the forge that is the problem. I guess the issue is the temperature difference between the large lumps of metal and the air around them (i.e. they take longer to warm up each day than the air does, when the air touches something colder, the moisture condenses out on that object).

Drains - I'm just putting a woodburner in now. Hopefully it'll help a bit. Along with the other measures. You almost want a storage heater under each machine.

Cheers, Al.

 

[the snooper]

its a bit strange your problem
obviously there is warm moist air in your building and your gear must be cooler then the atmosphere for it to condense so you have to look where that moisture is coming from.
when you concreted did you lay down a damp proof membrane ?
in theory if you have a draughty building it should help stop the condensation.
so you need to stop the moisture at the source.

 

[astro_al]

Hi, yes I did put a membrane in.

Well, its definitely draughty! Doesn't seem to be helping though!

Extra moisture could be from the ceiling dripping in various places, and then the moisture gradually evaporating into the air? Its just a barn out on its own (ish) - no local sources of hot / moist air or anything weird. It must all be coming out of the air itself.

So if I cobble together one of the air-warmers, is it better to make it recycle the air inside, or take it from outside and pump it in?

How about an air dehumidifier? (Obviously pretty pointless before I sealed the leaks).

Cheers, Al.

 

[the snooper]

could you try sheeting some of your gear over when not in use it may help

 

[graffian]

I would avoid WD40, it just washes the surface and then it rusts like ****. Try and get a can of ensis or rustilo. As mentioned you need to solve the condensation probs to really keep stuff dry but it's best to wack something on bare metal and stop the rust rather than letting the rust start. I started using a dehumidifer when I got my mill, not a lot of good to you in such a large volume, my problems have come back with the addition of more iron to my raj.
Someone was telling me as a last resort he put an old electric blanket on his shaper, it stayed dry and the machines next to it did aswell!

 

[MrFluffy]

The cure longterm is to keep the machines and environment at a even temperature, but your never going to achieve that if you run a forge intermittantly (unless you run it all night!). Its a good advert for putting heating tubes in a slab with a smaller place to keep the temperature more even though.

If the machines not going to be used for a couple of days, LPS-3 or T-9 Boeshield is the ticket but your going to have to wipe down with some sort of thinners as it dries to a waxy finish. If its in daily use, your usual wayoil should keep corrosion at bay quite nicely.
WD40 will sit on the surface and allow stuff to happen underneath over a longer period.

Other than that, polystyrene the roof inside somehow or spray treat it the same to insulate and try and get rid of that as a source of major temp differences.

Lps-3, http://www.flightstore.co.uk/lps-3-rust-inhibitor.asp
Boashield, where you can lay your hands on it...

 

[bigwoodslabs]

i have condensation too

i have use of a single brick walled, asbestos roofed workshop, 5m x 15m and spent some time building a rocket stove mass heater, only to succeed in creating an indoor shower and cold smoking room, ruining loads of my woodwork.

my only cheap solution is an internal plastic drip catch layer and guttering. but i am head in the sand on that at the moment, its a rubbish solution.

 

[Sid]

i have use of a single brick walled, asbestos roofed workshop, 5m x 15m and spent some time building a rocket stove mass heater, only to succeed in creating an indoor shower and cold smoking room, ruining loads of my woodwork.

my only cheap solution is an internal plastic drip catch layer and guttering. but i am head in the sand on that at the moment, its a rubbish solution.

A single brick wall is porous, so moisture will always find its way in.

Was this excessive water caused by the rocket stove mass drying?

When you say cold smoking room, I take it you mean that the heater was leaking smoke. Any pictures of this heater? Any more details on it and your building experience? When you first mentioned these heaters I did a bit of googling, and I find them interesting

 

[pedrobedro]

A single brick wall is porous, so moisture will always find its way in.

It might do if it's holding back a lot of water or is below ground level. I have a single block wall shed and it doesn't let anything in through the walls, the problem is usually down to temperature differences between inside and outside and only having a single skin roof. Line the ceiling with some boards and have some ventilation lower down and you should minimise the difference and cut a lot of condensation.

 

[stucktoweld]

The ultimate answer is to spray expanded foam can be quite expensive unless you do it yourselve or a tame contractor. (There is big money that can be made in the foam spraying business not unlike suspended ceiling/double glazing!!!)
It will insulate the building, protect the structure and stop the condensation. The single wall thin roof produces a poor thermal barrier to the outside.
As others have stated the cheapest way is to build a smaller wooden box.
I think the heating of the building is a beating to hell on your pocket its a bloody big space to heat.

 

[MrFluffy]

A single brick wall is porous, so moisture will always find its way in.

Was this excessive water caused by the rocket stove mass drying?

When you say cold smoking room, I take it you mean that the heater was leaking smoke. Any pictures of this heater? Any more details on it and your building experience? When you first mentioned these heaters I did a bit of googling, and I find them interesting

A render on the outside surface will cure the porosity. My house is mixed cobb and single breeze block in places, but outside its going to be lime rendered so you cant tell. Faux AND pratical (and its cheap if you can master the throwing on and troweling it knack)

For the celing, why not create a false suspended celing out of for eg ply, so there is a airgap between the asbestos and false which will keep your inside warm air seperate from the cold outside roof surface.

I too googled rocket mass heaters, but I cant for the life of me see how you clean the soot out every year. Even a vertical chimney will need sweeping to avoid clogging and fires once a year...

 

[Shox Dr]

A lot of people have said insulating the building will rid you of the condensation. Not true. It will only move it somewhere else ie your machines.

You need to get rid of the moisture. Are there kettles in the building, if so build a tea room, Do you quench, I expect you do with a foundry. Can that not be vented outside via a canopy. Even open vessels with water in them will all evaporate over time, put a lid on it. It doesn't take much to cause a Humid environment.
I have a 25x15 building I keep my bikes, compressor, Milling Machine to name a few. It is air tight, yet I can still pull a gallon of water out of nowhere a week just from opening the door a few times a day.

Bung all the holes up in the structure and get some Commercial Dehumidifiers in. Have them running 24/7 you will be amazed at how much water you will pull out of the air. Not only that it will feel warmer as well

 

[pidgeon chit welder]

I had two of our special farm buildings spray foamed on all walls & the roof in flame resistant foam just over 10 yrs ago and sealed the floors with floor sealer then a sand and resin paint mix. I made sure we had way too many power points 7 some 40 amp supplies before spraying over the ducting .
Sealing the floor is important if it was not given a waterproof membrane when constructed for the floor will sweat once the air temp climbs a few degrees above the floor temp and then the condensate occurs when the moisture reaches cold surfaces such as the roof & walls and also the floor as it cools down over night .

Basicaly the unsealed floor is an enormous wick so also check things like does the rain water get away from the building satisfactorily and are the gutters & drains clean & working .

Back in 1954 , Dad had to dig a deep french drain & fill it with gravel around our old house to reduce the water content of the old quarry tile floors.


Our barns that we insulated had no WPM in the floors ( made a mistook there when I built them ) ...One building was 20 feet x 40 feet x 18 high and the other was 60 feet x 30 feet x 3 mtr sides and a 5 mtr apex , both with 150 mm thick cast concrete floors but no water proofer in the mix.

In each put in a simple 24 inch extractor fan in an external brick built box at the rear away from the doors and piped it in to the rear corners on 500 mm duct at about 1 mtr off the ground & ran the fans off humidistats with manual overrides.

I also had a small 15 inch fan as an independent extractor for the fume/ work areas.

It was drier than a camels feet , in 14 oC of frost we rarely had the paraffin /waste oil stoves on even though, we were in & out the sheds for 6 to 8 hrs a day most days .

Total cost for the insulation spraying was around £1400 ( so double that and add a wee bit)
It was done by a guy called Simon from Milton Keynes ,he travels all ovder the Uk doing it for smaller businesses & cold stores , it only took two days and was well worth every penny.