Where to buy premium brand tungsten electrodes?

[carl0s]

My gear is all here now, and I ordered about 20 spare tungstens of differing sizes. Only thing is, I went for thoriated because I presumed that was the normal. (I'm doing steel only).

Then I heard about the radiation. I did also put one in my mouth briefly just to err, see how hard it felt and to see if there were any other interesting observations that could be made with the mouth (didn't find any).

So considering the radiation concerns and the general mess of my work area, I want some ceriated tungstens, but I don't want eBay-style China ones. I get the impression websites like R-Tech are just doing the China sourced stuff, since that's what they primarily deal in.

So back to the question, where can I get name-brand tungstens ?

I know WeldEquip is a forum supporter and very helpful person on here, but those on his site are made by Parweld, who import Chinese welders don't they?, so I wouldn't think their tungstens aren't quite what I'm looking for.

 

[pedrobedro]

Ebay Chinese tungstens are fine I've been using them for ages no problem. Do you put everything in your mouth to see how hard it is? I think I'd have kept quiet about that. Use the thoriated you have first, the amount of radiation you will get from a pack of those probably wouldn't even rattle the Geiger counter. You could use lanthanated instead of thoriated. Don't think you are getting a better product because it has a name on it, they most likely come from the same place as the cheap ones.

 

[hotrodder]

AFAIK virtually everyone gets their tungsten made in China although obviously there's tungsten and tungsten (the way it's manufactured, quality control etc). Thorium is an alpha emittor i.e. the radiation it emits won't penetrate paper. Eating it and stabbing yourself with it aside the only risk is from grinding dust i.e the grinding dust is considered a carcinogen but then no grinding dust is particually healthy...

If you want brand name stuff then Rapidwelding sell CK brand (all the usual flavours) and Weldmet offer Huntingdon Fusion 'multi strike' (colour tagged blue) they're a mix of lanthia, yttria and ceriated IIRC). I wouldn't bother paying more for a premium brand while learning as you typically spend a lot of time breaking off contaminated tungsten and resharpening 'em. When you get to the stage that you're generally resharpening tungsten due to natural erosion then the premium brands/fancy blended flavours can offer something in that they need to be 'touched up' less frequently

 

[langy]

I thought he was winding us up to begin with

Ebay Chinese tungstens are fine I've been using them for ages no problem. Do you put everything in your mouth to see how hard it is? I think I'd have kept quiet about that. Use the thoriated you have first, the amount of radiation you will get from a pack of those probably wouldn't even rattle the Geiger counter. You could use lanthanated instead of thoriated. Don't think you are getting a better product because it has a name on it, they most likely come from the same place as the cheap ones.

 

[Shox Dr]

The type of Radiation in Tungstens needs to be ingested for it to get into the body. The amounts you would need to suffer any damage is massive. There was a study done, and if you sharpened Tungsten's everyday for 45yrs it might reduce your expected life span by 1/4 of a day

 

[voipio]

The radiation within our bodies due to naturally-occuring isotopes present in tissues and body fluids, mainly Carbon-14 and Potassium-40, amounts to roughly 10,000 disintegrations per second, making radiation exposure from thoriated tungstens seem rather tame.

See e.g:
http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm
or
http://rerowland.com/BodyActivity.htm

 

[Shox Dr]

copied from another forum

Thoriated tungsten measurement is in microrads.

So to Clarify smoking =8000 milirads
Thoriated tungsen =1600microrads

Here are a few stats to compare it to
8000 milirads = 8 rads
1600 microrads = .0016 rads
1 rad = 1 rem

Comparative risk exposure estimated days of life lost
20% overweight 985 days
Average alcohol consumption 130 days
Occupational radiation exposure@
5.0 rem/year 32 days
0.5 rem/year 3 days
0.0016/year 6.912 minutes


Therefore if you worked with Thoriated Tungsten for 45 years 5 days a week, 8 hours a day you would loose 5.18 hrs off your life.

This is assuming all appropriate precations are taken.
Reference for the data here (accept Thoriated Tungsten, I had to calculate the dose rate myself)is
THE LOS ALAMOS RADIATION MONITORING NOTEBOOK

 

[Hitch]

I seem to recall that breathing the grinding dust from sharpening them is particularly bad for you, but as Hotrodder has said, no dusts are good for you.


We tend to use Abistrike tungstens mostly, radiation free, universal- AC/DC. Blue Tips. Wellington welding do them, but not listed on their website.

 

[Shox Dr]

Hitch, It's more a case of it's the only way it can get into the body

 

[Hitch]

Unless you stab yourself with one

 

[Drains]

Or stick one in your mouth

 

[jugs]

I did also put one in my mouth briefly just to err, see how hard it felt and to see if there were any other interesting observations that could be made with the mouth (didn't find any).

careful, malc & the mods may get upset as it's a family forum.

 

[carl0s]

LOL, thanks guys. I'll follow your advice and stick with what I have for now!

When I was a kid I discovered the the chewable properties of solder. Turns out that wasn't clever either. I just didn't figure that a stick of metal would be radioactive!

It's just that I read a thread on here where somebody implied that some dodgy Chinese manufacturers might just put a different coloured paint on the end of thoriated electrodes, and for the sake of a few quid it seems to make sense to use a trusted brand.

 

[graffian]

Or stick one in your mouth

Or choke to death on the blood after you have stabbed yourself in the tongue.

 

[Tig_Rob]

Oh really?

The type of Radiation in Tungstens needs to be ingested for it to get into the body. The amounts you would need to suffer any damage is massive. There was a study done, and if you sharpened Tungsten's everyday for 45yrs it might reduce your expected life span by 1/4 of a day

I'm, compiling evidence to get thoriated electrodes banished from my work place. If there is a choice between radioactive and non radioactive, i'll go for the 'non' everytime!

Every article i have found so far, suggests NOT using thoriated electrodes unless you HAVE to. The HSE says that the biggest danger is when an operator batch grinds electrodes from auto welders. THey sampled airborn dust when Local Exhaust Ventilation was used and they found airborne dust and surface contamination to be below 'controlled area' levels. We used a belt sander with no LEV at all. So we have a good chance of swallowing or breathing in radioactive dust particles

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/500-599/oc564_6r.htm

During the 90s, various examinations were carried out in the workplace at welding companies which found that where thoriated electrodes were being ground improperly, one could get a radiation dose nearly 20 times higher than the legally allowed dose for a non-professional person exposed to radiation.
Based on that, Switzerland has been pushing for banning their use and have effectively removed ALL thoriated tungsten electrodes from the country since 2004.

http://www.ndt.net/article/ecndt2006/doc/Th.3.5.5.pdf

The American Welding Society warn that if alternatives to thoriated electrodes are technically feasible, they should be used.

http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/tungsten/radioactivity.htm

So, now that i have possibly made your bowels loosen, don't panic. Sucking on an electrode won't kill you, although i wouldn't. Afterall, you don't know where it's been BUT care should be taken when grinding it to a point.
Personally, i'd put the lot on ebay and get myself some 1.5% lanthanated.


Jody, at welding tips and tricks dot com, suggests that the 2% lanthanated electrode really is the 'jack of all trades', as it will weld everything.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/tungsten-electrodes.html

He has a video of him trying out all types of electrodes back to back at 200amps and the 2% lanthanated comes out on top. If i could find the link i'd have put it here, but i couldn't. He has lots of videos with tips on tig and mig welding. They are interesting, despite the fact he sometimes like to plug his 'tig finger' to you, but even that is done in a nice way.

So, to recap, i only joined up to comment on the '45 years of grinding might shorten your life by 12 hours' comment. Well, NOT if you suck in a radioactive particle that gets lodged in your lung and goes ape*hit and causes cancer...

 

[hotrodder]

Welcome to the forum Rob.

Bear in mind that there WILL be a chunk of 'cover our bottoms' going on with regards to thoriated tungstens... what's happened in the past with regards to asbestos, recent trials concerning manganism- google 'lincoln electric manganism trial' for more info etc

Obviously it's better to be over cautious than complacent but i'm with Shox in that the 'radiation' dangers of thoriated are being overdone a bit... known carcinogen would be maybe be a better way to go but then there's LOADS of things in use/around that are carcinogenic, some of them are maybe even forced on us in the name of environmentalism for example did you know that the eolys fluid used with some diesel DPFs contains a suspected carcinogen, that it's known about and that studies have been done to estimate the impact on the increased levels of cerium oxides in the environment? The studies i've read suggest they don't really know what's gonna happen but consider it better than the soot/particulate matter problems now that 'they've' convinced everyone diesels are the way. So far they've confirmed a link with the lung disease pneumoconiosis. Ceriated tungsten anyone?

I agree there are better flavours of tungsten around these days, lanthanated and other 'rare earth' mixes that outperform thoriated with DCEN and also work well with AC, even better than zirconiated depending on personal preferences. Bottom line however is that breathing any metal dusts/fumes ain't good for you and many (most, all?) of the rare earth metals/oxides are if anything more likely to be worse than 'vanilla' flavours

 

[Shox Dr]

So still nothing to worry about then. Id be more concerned with grinding dust from the work piece, and welding fumes. Do you wear a respirator for those tasks?

Welcome to the forum by the way

 

[weld1]

I'm, compiling evidence to get thoriated electrodes banished from my work place. If there is a choice between radioactive and non radioactive, i'll go for the 'non' everytime!

Every article i have found so far, suggests NOT using thoriated electrodes unless you HAVE to. The HSE says that the biggest danger is when an operator batch grinds electrodes from auto welders. THey sampled airborn dust when Local Exhaust Ventilation was used and they found airborne dust and surface contamination to be below 'controlled area' levels. We used a belt sander with no LEV at all. So we have a good chance of swallowing or breathing in radioactive dust particles

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/500-599/oc564_6r.htm

During the 90s, various examinations were carried out in the workplace at welding companies which found that where thoriated electrodes were being ground improperly, one could get a radiation dose nearly 20 times higher than the legally allowed dose for a non-professional person exposed to radiation.
Based on that, Switzerland has been pushing for banning their use and have effectively removed ALL thoriated tungsten electrodes from the country since 2004.

http://www.ndt.net/article/ecndt2006/doc/Th.3.5.5.pdf

The American Welding Society warn that if alternatives to thoriated electrodes are technically feasible, they should be used.

http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/tungsten/radioactivity.htm

So, now that i have possibly made your bowels loosen, don't panic. Sucking on an electrode won't kill you, although i wouldn't. Afterall, you don't know where it's been BUT care should be taken when grinding it to a point.
Personally, i'd put the lot on ebay and get myself some 1.5% lanthanated.


Jody, at welding tips and tricks dot com, suggests that the 2% lanthanated electrode really is the 'jack of all trades', as it will weld everything.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/tungsten-electrodes.html

He has a video of him trying out all types of electrodes back to back at 200amps and the 2% lanthanated comes out on top. If i could find the link i'd have put it here, but i couldn't. He has lots of videos with tips on tig and mig welding. They are interesting, despite the fact he sometimes like to plug his 'tig finger' to you, but even that is done in a nice way.

So, to recap, i only joined up to comment on the '45 years of grinding might shorten your life by 12 hours' comment. Well, NOT if you suck in a radioactive particle that gets lodged in your lung and goes ape*hit and causes cancer...

Sorry for the thread revival

I've been researching the use of thoriated tungsten's and like your self I think an alternative should be used when possible but surely if one particle could cause so much damage then they would be banned out right?. I mean there are thorium radiation sources in everyday life such as soil, rocks food etc. So we are all breathing thorium everyday . I recently read cigarettes contain some type of alpha radiation, be it a shorter half life then thorium but they are sucked on every day. ( yes they do cause cancer but you have to smoke a significant amount)

Surely most TIG welders have breathed in some particles either from the grinding wheel, particles being stuck on clothes and breathed up after or using the grinder after a tungsten grinding operation so if one particle could cause drastic damage then are TIG welders dicing with possible death? Like said before all dusts are bad to inhale so is it more to do in some respects about the quantity inhaled?

But i do think non radioactive products should be used when possible.

 

[blueytoo]

According to manufacturers blurb, in non-radioactive tungstens, possibly rare earth blends are the most universal.

Wolfram has made Witstar WS2 for a decade. See info:
http://www.wolfram-industrie.de/download.php
especially the TIG Guideline last page bottom has a chart:
http://www.wolfram-industrie.de/downloads/Leitfaden_TIG_neu_FuE_mit_Logo_EN.pdf

Diamond Ground markets a TriMix WS2, possibly made by Wolfram Germany (according to FAQ):
http://www.diamondground.co.uk/welding-electrode-ws2-white.php

Others:
Radnor E3 http://www.radnor-e3.com/
Huntingdon Fusion MultiStrike http://www.huntingdonfusion.com/en/...trodes-a-grinders/multi-strike-tungstens.html
CK Worldwide LaYZr http://www.ckworldwide.com/Tungsten_Selector_FP9.pdf

The Wolfram WS2 is a non-disclosed secret blend, but probably a mix of Lanthanum + Zirconium + Yttrium.

CK Worldwide LaZYr and Radnor E3 disclose the rare earth mix as:
Tungsten 98.34%
Lanthanum 1.5%
Zirconium 0.08%
Yttrium 0.08%

Would be interesting to see a comparison...

 

[blueytoo]

For the curious, I found a 1999 chinese research paper comparing rare earth blends with the thoriated "gold standard". They tested four blends of Lanthanum, Yttrium, Cerium with a lot less Lanthanum and a lot more Ytttrium.
http://www.cnnmol.com/Search/ResultView.aspx?conId=dqx5y095AgE=

Arc Zone has a home branded secret blend called ArcTime. The MSDS says is has 96% Tungsten and no mention of Yttrium. So it should be Lanthanum + Cerium + Zirconium all in largish quantities.
http://www.arc-zone.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14_154