Vauxhall Movano van electrical problems

[Can'tWeld]

Need some help with a mate's Vauxhall Movano van.

Basically the problems all started a few weeks ago when the spring in his ignition switch failed and the starter was engaged for about 30 seconds while he was driving.

When he stopped and opened the bonnet there was smoke coming from somewhere, but he doesn't know where.

Since then the starter will not turn the engine, at all. There is a 'click' from the solenoid (which is definitely engaging) and that's all. There is voltage at the fat wire that connects the battery to the starter. It will not jump start either. It will start with a tow or a bump, which brings me on to the next problem:

The little battery light is on, indicating that the alternator is not working. It's right, too - with the engine running the battery measures 12 volts only, revving it up makes no difference.

Is it conceivable that the alternator and starter could have died at once or are they somehow electrically intermingled, and the death of one could have stopped the other working?

Oh, and the engine earth is fine too (tested it with a jump lead from battery negative to the block, no difference).

Someone on another forum suggested starter and alternator are both ******ed, which sounds likely, but is there anything else that could be the cause of the problem? All the leads look OK, the big fat one going to the starter and the one coming from the alternator is fine.

Going to remove the starter and alternator this weekend and bench test them but just wondered if anyone has any experience with these vans at all.

 

[mike os]

could be both knackered, probably the starter needs a rebuild & altenator will be condirmed on a test.... other potential damage would be to ECU/charge controller or battery

 

[eddie49]

If the starter was engaged with the engine turning at speed, then maybe it was forced to rotate so fast that, acting as a dynamo, it raised the voltage on the entire electrical system of the van. The voltage regulator on the alternator may have blown trying to hold this voltage down.

 

[Can'tWeld]

other potential damage would be to ECU/charge controller or battery

ECU seems OK (when you turn the key the right lights come on and the digital display says "OIL OK"), and battery seems to hold a charge as it will start another car fine.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[tigler]

The ECU should have overvolts protection so should be ok. I doubt the starter will have survived without terminal damage , even beyond a rebuild !! It would have been rotated at very high speed so the centrifugal force would have exploded the armature which would then have destroyed everything in it's path. If it hasn't I wanna see the internals !! As mentioned above it will have been acting as a dynamo with no reg so the high volts will have let the smoke out of the alternator too. Probably done the reg and diode pack , andd possible the windings.

 

[Justme]

Take them both into a recon shop.
The weekend is not the time to do it. Whip them out one evening & drop them in in the morning & they will have them done by the time you pick them up that night. Do it on the weekend & you wont get them back till the Monday night. Or you can pay LOTS more & buy a recon unit from a car parts store that will just supply one from stock & get yours done at the same shop anyway to go back on the shelf.

(the above is a simplification, in fact they will just leave the units in a pile till they have enough & then return them en mass to the shop on a deposit system, as long as sales & returned units are balanced)

 

[series2]

What Tigler said.

If not the starter acting as a generator and overloading the regulator, massive current will have been drawn, and the smoke will most likely be burned starter / alternator wiring.

I'd get an auto spark to give it a look over before fitting new bits, just to save more expense. What ever you do though, DON'T take it to the dealer's, they will just lift your leg and overcharge (no pun intended) you.

 

[the snooper]

when he had the initial problem did he by any chance remove the battery lead with the engine running as disconecting the battery while running will blow the alernator.
the starter motor wont have blown it as the altenators have diodes so the battery doesnt back feed the altenator when not running.
could be just one of those annoying coincidences

 

[series2]

when he had the initial problem did he by any chance remove the battery lead with the engine running as disconecting the battery while running will blow the alernator.
the starter motor wont have blown it as the altenators have diodes so the battery doesnt back feed the altenator when not running.
could be just one of those annoying coincidences

The voltage produced by a startermotor being turned at engine running speed would be quite high, also very (electricaly) noisy & capable of providing substantial current. This combo could easily cook the regulator and/or diode pack in the alternator, along with the wiring, battery etc.

because of the way an alternator works, it is more likely that the diode pack has gone. Still not worth trying to overhaul it yourself as parts are difficult to get hold of, and recon exchange units are not too expensive. The starter, after it's ordeal will probably be beyond (economical) repair, again exchange is the way forward.

If you go with a reputable reconditioner, I would expext to pay around £50 for an alternator and about £75-100 for the starter.

Check all the wiring between the starter/alternator and battery, often to save on wiring costs the alternator is connected to battery cable at the starter motor.

If I were doing the job myself, I would start with the local breakers yards to see if you can get second hand parts. could save a lot of £££'s.

 

[the snooper]

most modern pre engaged starters now have a clutch on the drive gear so even if fully engaged with the engine running it shouldnt have been able to produce any significant current.
if the diodes had gone in the alternator then it would be draining the battery continuously and usualy when the diodes have gone the battery light illuminates even with ignition off.
its more likely that the avr has gone

 

[series2]

Having not seen the 'damage', I was just speculating the the worst case scenario, and trying to save the chap further expense.

Because smoke was issued, it is likely that there is damage to some of the wiring. The diodes used in alternators are usually the schottky type, which more often than not fail open circuit, but the regulator will probably be cooked too.

I'm not sure about the clutches on the starters, this has never happened to me (touching some wood), but I have had one jam (pre-engaged type) and it cooked the main battery cable & boiled the battery, luckily the engine was on a test bed at the time.

DIY repair of alternators/dynamos/starter motors, is not really viable as the parts are not easily obtainable. Most 'reconditioners' just use parts from several old ones to make a 'new' one, fit new brushes, and give them a coat of paint.

I know of one reputable reconditioner in Warrington who does bronze(strip & clean), silver(new brushes and bearings) & gold(full overhaul inc rewind) recons. never had an issue with any of their work, in fact they do military Landrover stuff for me, 2 day turnaround, including painting in original colour. All thier work is guaranteed.

 

[the snooper]

what ever the reason for the smoke or what ever has failed what we do know for sure is he to replace them both.
ive done a search in the past for companys that will supply alternator parts but found nothing so i agree people will find it hard to repair then at home