Used HSS tooling

[Cato]

In prep for actually turning things I've been looking through what's here, used stuff that 'came with things' and a brief nose on eBay. One thing that leapt out at me with both sources was the abysmal state of the cutting edges which have been shaped and sharpened. Some of them look like they were roughed out with a gas axe then finished by rubbing on a brick. Others like they were finished with an angle grinder, and still more which look like they started to go blunt when I was in nappies and just kept being used.

Is this the normal state for used tooling?

I'm very much in the novice bracket with lathes and turning, having not used one/done any for decades and then it was very little. So I find it surprising that something so basic, which you really don't need to be an expert to spot, is generally so bad. Is it just that people are getting rid of bodged rubbish and keeping the good stuff.

I guess most of them could be returned to a good shape, bit there'd be more time spent shaping and sharpening than turning. No wonder the insert type tools are so popular.

 

[hotponyshoes]

I expect there are plenty of people who have no idea how to sharpen a lathe tool correctly.
I'd include myself in one of those!

Ie, I bought my lathe second-hand.
Came with an assorted box of tooling that was probably the same box that came with it when the guy before me bought it.

Some of the tools were obviously knackered. Some looked absolutely fine but didn't cut very well (might be user error!)

I just kept things simple and bought a few indexable tools for the basic operations.

Some of the tools that looked worn have probably now been pushed past the limits by me using them for "just one job" and probably forcing them a bit harder than I should rather than figuring out how to sharpen them a bit in the first place.

Even if I try one of those tools in the lathe and it won't cut I don't bin it. It just goes back into the box that will eventually go with the lathe again if I ever sell it on.
I might think some of those tools will be fine after sharpening but, if you bought the lathe, you might think they are all scrap.

Whenever I have bought a lathe /mill etc I have never attached much value to any tooling that comes with it and the seller usually hasn't either.
There are exceptions, the guys that obviously know exactly what they are doing and have built a special rack to hold all the tooling and everything is wrapped in brown paper etc. These are the guys that know its all been well maintained and will be easy to find as they will know the value and price it accordingly.
That's the sort of person to buy from if you want it all in good condition as they will have discarded all the junk for you.
I can't normally justify the extra price though as I only have a lathe incase I need to use it for something so I don't want to pay for a load of decent tooling I will never use.

Regarding the ebay sellers, I think there are plenty of sellers that have excellent knowledge and sell good stock.
If you sort by price low-to-high you probably won't see them.
There are also sellers that have no idea and sell any old stuff they get in basing it on the prices of the better sellers.

I quite often do "scrap" bin raids of places and have a bid on a clearance/bankruptcy now and again.
There are a couple of local places (literally only 2 remaining now) that let me rummage through the offcuts/scrap bin and cherry-pick. There is always some sort of machinery tooling in there but I push it aside as I know they wouldn't have put it in there if it was still usable.

The rest of the places won't let you rummage. The md might ring me telling me he has some bits he thinks I'd want but I then have to email a bid to the office, wait for the next meeting, email the finance department for an invoice, post a cheque, fill in a risk assessment then turn up at an appointed time in high vis for the pallet to get forklifted into the van.
Same sort of thing with the auctions.
You bid on a lot that has some bits you want but you have to take everything in that lot.

I generally bin anything that looks like it might not be perfect as I don't need the hassle of buyers moaning about it.
I still end up with loads of lathe/milling cutting tools that I will never use. Mostly brand new stuff from the store rooms or stuff that's been kept in special boxes in air-conditioned rooms.
It's still hard to shift it on ebay though.
I might list a Sandvik cutter say, retail price might be £850. I list it for £100 and all I get is sensible buyers asking me technical questions I can't answer or idiot buyers asking why their £25 offer has been declined when they can buy the 'same' thing brand new for £40 then including a link to an unbranded item from china that is actually £49.99 + £35 postage!

There is normally a lot of interest at a clearance auction, some of the bidders are dealers but I recognise a few of the guys who are like myself, bidding as they want one or two items in the lot and selling on the rest to get the items they wanted at a reasonable price.
Some of them will just try and sell every unwanted item and maybe they have time to deal with returns/complaints so all sorts of crud ends up on ebay.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Ps. Let me know if you want any tooling!
But you'll have to be specific with what you want as I don't know what most of the stuff is!

 

[Cato]

Thanks for that, much appreciated.

I don't mean sharpened badly, I mean absolutely mullered on a grinder. I'm OK at sharpening at best, but with a little time and care on a decent whet stone I'd like to think I could get things how they're needed.

In terms of what I need I'm going to sort out a few basics, then get things as required per job.

 

[Pete.]

Your very first task should be to get hold of a good dressing tool for your grinder wheel. Most people have wheels that are as blunt as a rock. Dress the wheel and it will cut faster, cooler and not burn the tool steel so much.

 

[bricol]

I guess the sellers don't bother wasting time sharpening tooling for the extra 23p they'd get for it. Or the hassle of the complaints afterwards 'cos its not to their liking.

Picture it as it is, describe it as it is . . . If it sells, it sells. If not, it goes for scrap with no hassle.

If its looked mullered, but you think you can recover it, buy it for a price you are happy with. If you don't, don't.

I would think the only time you would complained about knackered tooling would be if it was sold as new, un-used, or sharp, ready to use.

 

[Cato]

I guess the sellers don't bother wasting time sharpening tooling for the extra 23p they'd get for it. Or the hassle of the complaints afterwards 'cos its not to their liking.

Picture it as it is, describe it as it is . . . If it sells, it sells. If not, it goes for scrap with no hassle.

If its looked mullered, but you think you can recover it, buy it for a price you are happy with. If you don't, don't.

I would think the only time you would complained about knackered tooling would be if it was sold as new, un-used, or sharp, ready to use.

Yeah I get that and agree. What I was getting at is it's surprising to me that it ends up in that state in the first place.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Yeah I get that and agree. What I was getting at is it's surprising to me that it ends up in that state in the first place.

Users like me butchering stuff I expect.
Example: I needed a replacement shaft for something. Had a bit of metal that was perfect but it needed a circlip groove in one end. Was pushed for time so chucked it in the lathe and wound a parting off tool in.
The tool was the right width to cut the groove in one go. Coolant tank was drained out and the tool was blunt.
I had a go on the grinder to sharpen the tool using whatever wheel was in it which got me to half depth then had another grind to take the burrs off the sides and sharpen it a bit more. Cleaned the messy groove up with a file and got the repair finished.
I expect I chucked the tool back in the box of questionable tools in the sad sorry state it finished in!

 

[Stupoty]

My first lathe came with some amazingly ground tools but I have seen the ones that look like they were sharpened with an angle grinder

Stu

 

[Maker]

I have seen the ones that look like they were sharpened with an angle grinder

I do form tools and boring bars with an angle grinder, it takes material off so much faster, and you can hold it in a vice rather than burn your fingers. Of course I then clean it up on a bench grinder, and finish it with a stone.

 

[gaz1]

you have to learn how to sharpen them or get yourself a tool cutter grinder

i have a homemade one and others will do it by hand

 

[Cato]

Users like me butchering stuff I expect.
Example: I needed a replacement shaft for something. Had a bit of metal that was perfect but it needed a circlip groove in one end. Was pushed for time so chucked it in the lathe and wound a parting off tool in.
The tool was the right width to cut the groove in one go. Coolant tank was drained out and the tool was blunt.
I had a go on the grinder to sharpen the tool using whatever wheel was in it which got me to half depth then had another grind to take the burrs off the sides and sharpen it a bit more. Cleaned the messy groove up with a file and got the repair finished.
I expect I chucked the tool back in the box of questionable tools in the sad sorry state it finished in!

It's funny I'd never considered needing to do a 'quick and dirty' job on a lathe. No idea why it's no different than any other piece of equipment in that respect, I just associate lathe work with pottering or pre-planned stuff. Probably says more about the way I work (or want to) these days than anything else.

 

[Barking Mat]

Sharpening drill bits and hss lathe and mill stuff is something I try.

With very mixed results.

Often think I shouldn't bother trying.

 

[Seadog]

Persevere. You'll get the hang of it.

 

[Cato]

Sharpening drill bits and hss lathe and mill stuff is something I try.

With very mixed results.

Often think I shouldn't bother trying.

It's one of those things which just 'clicks' at some point. Do you do it free hand or with a jig?

 

[Barking Mat]

It's one of those things which just 'clicks' at some point. Do you do it free hand or with a jig?

Free hand.

 

[grim_d]

HSS has it's place but the prevalence and affordability of insert tooling means it just makes sense, of course there are caveats to that, just like anything.

Muck about touching up an edge or just flip an insert round, I know what I prefer.

That's not to say it's not worth learning how to do it, I keep a load of HSS around for those one off tools I need.

If they look horrendous it's because it doesn't matter one iota what anything other than the cutting edge looks like. In all honesty, even badly ground tools will still cut!

 

[Cato]

Free hand.

Well it'd be worth getting one of those really cheap sharpening guides that don't last very long and are a fiddle to set up. Do a few different things with it, wood chisel, carving knife, drill bit, centre point, cold chisel, that sort of mix. It will help get your eye in for the different angles to grind and the position the body/shank/handle is in. Sounds daft, but if you did a couple of hours like that over a week and go back to free hand it will make a big difference to being able to repeat the same angles.

 

[Cato]

If they look horrendous it's because it doesn't matter one iota what anything other than the cutting edge looks like. In all honesty, even badly ground tools will still cut!

I think that may be the issue for me tbh. I'm completely stuck in the 'this is how you do it' routine from working with my dad and then during my apprenticeship. All the "it should look like this when you're done" and the associated b0ll0ckings if it didn't stick with you I guess. Plus the 'it takes as long as it takes' rather than having to do things in/to a time.

 

[Barking Mat]

Well it'd be worth getting one of those really cheap sharpening guides that don't last very long and are a fiddle to set up. Do a few different things with it, wood chisel, carving knife, drill bit, centre point, cold chisel, that sort of mix. It will help get your eye in for the different angles to grind and the position the body/shank/handle is in. Sounds daft, but if you did a couple of hours like that over a week and go back to free hand it will make a big difference to being able to repeat the same angles.

I've got a drill sharpening bit of paper explanation, pinned up next to the bench grinder at work.

I've tried free hand, but little success, a guide would probably / undoubtedly help, the small drills at work are expendable, but 10 to 20mm, be good if we could resharpen them.