Struggling with weld positioning.

[DanClarke]

Hi Guys, I'm new to MIG welding and my only training has been a 6-week night-school course which was not a roaring success (another story entirely).

Why do I want to weld? - I am recently retired and I want to build some recumbent bikes.
My welder is a little CLARKE105EN and I am using plain 0.6mm wire and Argon 5% mix @ c.13LPM.
Typical material is/will be 16 Gauge Round or Square tube section and occasionaly some 3mm bar.

Welds on bits of 16 Ga scrap plate are great with superb penetration (it looks like a caterpillar has eaten into the metal and can be seen on both sides - as per the tutorial on this site).

The problem is that when I try to join two tubes etc. together at an angle for the life of me I just cannot get the weld beads where they are meant to be. I really struggle to get the beads laid down on the joint and they often wander off onto one or other of the two pieces and not on the joint itself.

I have an auto-darkening helmet (which does auto-darken) and I've tried every setting from 9 - 13 and I still cannot clearly see where my weld pool is in relation to the 2 items I am joining (which leads to some hilarious results and a lot of grinding and filing and re-work to hide my embarrassment).

Clearly my technique is all/partly wrong, is this something that only practice will resolve or am I missing some basic guideline steps here? Does the work area need more background illumination (although any light must be totally swamped by the arc, surely)?

Yours in quiet frustration,

Dan.

 

[BrokenBiker]

right, firstly, what position and joint type are you welding? is the job flat on the bench? is it a fillet weld i.e. you are welding an inside corner where each bit meets at 90 degrees.

it sounds like you may have your arc length too long with the weld wandering to one side or the other, either that or your hand isn't steady and the torch is wandering too. I find welding in sunlight a lot easier than welding under a lamp, but I also find that when it gets to the point where I just cant see the mask needs a good clean. I use furniture polish on the outer plastic lens.

pictures of your attempts would be good as a picture will say more than you can describe at this stage

 

[ukracer]

The problem is that when I try to join two tubes etc. together at an angle for the life of me I just cannot get the weld beads where they are meant to be. I really struggle to get the beads laid down on the joint and they often wander off onto one or other of the two pieces and not on the joint itself.

I have an auto-darkening helmet (which does auto-darken) and I've tried every setting from 9 - 13 and I still cannot clearly see where my weld pool is in relation to the 2 items I am joining (which leads to some hilarious results and a lot of grinding and filing and re-work to hide my embarrassment).

Clearly my technique is all/partly wrong, is this something that only practice will resolve or am I missing some basic guideline steps here? Does the work area need more background illumination (although any light must be totally swamped by the arc, surely)?


Yours in quiet frustration,

Dan.

Technique is a part of it BUT in my humble opinion the mask plays a big part and as BB says welding in sunlight makes things really easy to see (not necessarily weld) lol

I will post some pics tomorrow I took of some welds of a beaver tail i did. Some welds with a 3 phase welder and some with my new R-tech. I am far from good I can tell you that but the only real way to learn is experiment. I found flat runs a easy but vertical joints and ,end joints particularly 2 thicknesses etc, caused issues.

I can tell you that using a cheap mask is useless for me. Its ok to see a welder in action but welding its laughable.

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards Andy t

 

[pedrobedro]

If you can't see what you are doing you need some glasses or a magnifying (cheater) lens and get your head near what you are doing. Some light on the subject is good as well.

 

[DanClarke]

Thanks all,

The welds in question are the intersection of two 1 and 3/4 inch tubes.

So, for instance this one where the weld wandered off course all over the place and has had to be ground away.



Compared to the other side that went relatively well (I say only relatively, because it looks a bit "cold" to me).



and this one across the open obtuse-angled face,



I am too ashamed to show the total botch that was the rear acute face.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[DanClarke]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to respond to another question above.
All welding has taken place in a vise on a bench in a more or less horizontal position in daytime and also (in one instance) with a floodlight on the work (to see if it made a difference).
Regards,

Dan.

 

[norlander]

Dan, when you are welding at the bench have you got lights behind you reflected in your lens?-this can occasionally cause problems for me.

Try welding with the torch at about 90° to the joint-you can often get away with torch angles with mig that other methods would struggle with so have play with that and see how you go.

 

[waddycall]

In the past I've been using an auto helmet thinking it was working as it was meant to as it darkened when I struck an arc. One day I welded right off the end of a fillet and carried on welding the bench top. This sounds like what you're experiencing. The next day I picked up a very cheap fixed shade non auto helmet, shade 10 or 11 I think. I couldn't believe the difference I could clearly see the joint and could easily identify the puddle and the arc wasn't too bright. I still use that cheap lid for mig from time to time. I have an Esab auto helmet I use for stick and tig. I think a fixed shade non auto is clearer but the nod action makes it hard for me to use for stick and tig. It may be worth picking up a cheap fixed shade lid and seeing if it helps.

 

[Fastfingaz]

might not be the helmet or lens,, a big mistake beginners make when starting out is that they try to look over their torch and of course all they see is the torch and the blue light ,, position yourself so that you have the torch on the side of your helmet,, that way you cane see the work and the tip of the torch,,,and you can see where your weld is going,, I'm not saying this is what you're doing but if you are,, thats how you correct it,,

 

[norlander]

might not be the helmet or lens,, a big mistake beginners make when starting out is that they try to look over their torch and of course all they see is the torch and the blue light ,, position yourself so that you have the torch on the side of your helmet,, that way you cane see the work and the tip of the torch,,,and you can see where your weld is going,, I'm not saying this is what you're doing but if you are,, thats how you correct it,,

Yes it occurred to me to post about that after I explained to a novice biker about seeing not just looking yesterday. Soldiers and shooters learn this, your brain tends to focus the eye on the nearest object in your field of vision so you have to force your eyes past it to see beyond it.

When you drive a car, you often look at the car in front instead of seeing whats in front of the car in front so you are looking at a car-not seeing the road ahead.When you look at the edge of a wood-you see a line of trees- a shooter pushes his eyes past the trees to see into the wood.

Not sure that makes sense tbh.

 

[gaz1]

try having a look at these may help you

extra info on welding

square tubing

[flash(425,350)]

thin steel
[flash(425,350)]

[flash(425,350)]

[flash(425,350)]

take note of this one

[flash(425,350)]

flux core

[flash(425,350)]http://www.youtube.com/v/KzSNpsLT40Q[/flash]

for thin stuff

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/lap-joint-3mm-on-8mm.44630/#post-494457

 

[Jim Davey]

+1 for giving it a try with a non light reactive helmet. I often use mine instead of a reactive one as I just find the clarity of vision to be superior. It's a must that the lenses are spotless as scratches and swirls really do reduce your ability to see.
I'd also recommend shining up your metal with a flap disk before you weld, the light plays off the shiny surfaces making things easier to see, this makes defining where your weld joint is a lot easier, especially if you're welding dull steel covered in mill-scale.

 

[ajlelectronics]

When you drive a car, you often look at the car in front instead of seeing whats in front of the car in front so you are looking at a car-not seeing the road ahead.When you look at the edge of a wood-you see a line of trees- a shooter pushes his eyes past the trees to see into the wood.

Not sure that makes sense tbh.

Makes perfect sense. It's something I also taught as a motorcycle instructor. It's also the reason that 'er indoors gets lost, even on a motorway. She fixates on the car in front and doesn't look ahead to read signs.

 

[Robotstar5]

I focus on what's ahead of the car in front of me, probably why I feel uncomfortable when behind a large van, lorry etc. when I'm unable to position myself to see what's ahead of it.

 

[DanClarke]

Thanks to everyone that has taken the time and trouble to help me with advice, guidance and embedded web-content. It is very much appreciated.

What a great board & community this is.

 

[Jan]

My driving instructor always told me to 'look for Blackpool Tower' by any means possible and all points inbetween. Because of this I will use every trick in the book to see past the vehicle in front even if it means hanging back further, looking down the nearside, under it or even the reflections in house/shop windows.
In the same vein I place my head to one side of the torch and look along the length of the seam that I'm stitching together and weld towards me.