- Thread starter jugs
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Just because its a boiler it wont make any difference. Its the thickness of the plate / access / joint configuration etc etc that governs what you can do.
Usually 304L stainless is used, sometimes 316L but really theres no advantage using 316L. Often as not they are only partially SS and there will be some MS involved so then you need 309L filler for the SS to MS joints.
Usually 304L stainless is used, sometimes 316L but really theres no advantage using 316L. Often as not they are only partially SS and there will be some MS involved so then you need 309L filler for the SS to MS joints.
jugs
Dont wish to offend & annoy, but...
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jugs
Dont wish to offend & annoy, but...
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I'm not coded so couldn't get a boiler test cert or insurance.
My questions come because of a bit of a row brewing
in miniature steam railway circles, so I want to be sure of my facts before wading in (not like me to cause trouble as you well know 
).Miniature boilers have a lot of regs depending on type/ size/ material.
Copper - can be made by any one - brazed/silver soldered
Steel boilers - must be made of certified boiler plate all marked & documented. must be welded by a certified welder & inspected by an independent inspector at all stages.
Stainless - is not used in UK or USA (it might go bang
) All boilers have to have an initial (x2 working pressure) hydraulic test then a steam pressure test, both to be carried out by a registered boiler tester.
BUT SS has been widely used on the continent for 20 + yrs & Australia has also started using. Also industry in UK & USA have used SS for boilers & chemical plants for years.
So looking for info to help get the UK regs changed to allow the use of properly constructed SS boilers. Not much joy on tinter-net yet , so came to the fount of all
knowledge .
madkayaker
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so your causing trouble as normal. does seam a bit strange as SS is used for steam pipe on subs etc
Drains
Yeah, nah.
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120 psi? That's little baby stuff. Ok, there can be a lot of volume and heat behind that in a boiler, so still potentially dangerous, but it's that not far from what we see in a typical compressed air circuit. We're running 400 bar in the hydraulic circuits at work (that's 4 Km of head, if you imagine a hose pointing straight up), with, as far as I know, no safety design, manufacture or inspection regime, coded by law.
Sounds like a lot of out-datedness going on in the legal system. There's a surprise.
Sounds like a lot of out-datedness going on in the legal system. There's a surprise.
chriskelland
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Hi Jugs,
SS is not used in UK because there is no test protocol for completed model boilers. As far as I am aware this is being looked at by the ME Liaison Group. The most recent info I have came from the National Boiler Seminar 2010.
Section 3 of the current ME test code says that SS boilers shall not be tested, however that said there is no reason why you could not get it tested commercially. But be aware that you will probably be drawn into Design Verification and have to provide calculations and drawings. You also could not use a recognised design where SS was not used.
You could use a SS design from eu or Australia and have it tested commercially under full PSSR 2000 regulations. Don't forget to take out a second mortgage!
If you really want to follow this up talk to Royal & Sun Alliance Engineering, these are the guys who decide what is insurable and what is not.
Chris.
SS is not used in UK because there is no test protocol for completed model boilers. As far as I am aware this is being looked at by the ME Liaison Group. The most recent info I have came from the National Boiler Seminar 2010.
Section 3 of the current ME test code says that SS boilers shall not be tested, however that said there is no reason why you could not get it tested commercially. But be aware that you will probably be drawn into Design Verification and have to provide calculations and drawings. You also could not use a recognised design where SS was not used.
You could use a SS design from eu or Australia and have it tested commercially under full PSSR 2000 regulations. Don't forget to take out a second mortgage!
If you really want to follow this up talk to Royal & Sun Alliance Engineering, these are the guys who decide what is insurable and what is not.
Chris.
jugs
Dont wish to offend & annoy, but...
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Oh yes, lots of danger, if a vessel ruptures the superheated water expands about 1000 times
, its more destructive than gunpowder 
.Who me
.It does seem absurd that industrially, the technology exists world wide using higher temps & pressures but a commercially made model boiler is deemed safe throughout the EU, except the UK
(Stainless was invented in Sheffield)
madkayaker
Pro sparkey Pro Welder
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Oh yes, lots of danger, if a vessel ruptures the superheated water expands about 1000 times
Who me
It does seem absurd that industrially, the technology exists world wide using higher temps & pressures but a commercially made model boiler is deemed safe throughout the EU, except the UK
by accident if you believe the story that technical was saying (and i do as my granddad told the same story)
jugs
Dont wish to offend & annoy, but...
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Hi Chris,
These are some of the questions being asked - Why not & how long?? This started at a 7¼G AGM 6 yrs ago when a continental member with a SS boiler asked about running in UK, that lead to why cant we have SS in UK??
As you say "Section 3 of the current ME test code says that SS boilers shall not be tested"End of. Another Why ??
One member of the Boiler test group has stated to me that SS is unsutible for boilers because it weekens with heat, if thats true I want to ban them....& ALL other SS hot pressure vesales... world wide
The Boiler test group has rqusted that all comunications with RSAE go via the group
john
chriskelland
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John,
I Know things are being looked at. However the Liaison Group moves at the speed of the slowest member. When you consider that a certain Fed of Mes's does practically nothing I'm not surprised nothing happens.
Can I assume that you are a member of a MES? Which Fed are you members of? Hopefully it may be NAMES. They seem to be the most progressive. Is there a copy of the Australian test code out there, be interesting to see how it differs from the blue book.
Stay in touch.
Chris.
I Know things are being looked at. However the Liaison Group moves at the speed of the slowest member. When you consider that a certain Fed of Mes's does practically nothing I'm not surprised nothing happens.
Can I assume that you are a member of a MES? Which Fed are you members of? Hopefully it may be NAMES. They seem to be the most progressive. Is there a copy of the Australian test code out there, be interesting to see how it differs from the blue book.
Stay in touch.
Chris.
chriskelland
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John,
You may find this interesting, a project for a 71/4 Darjeeling with a SS boiler, with some info on the Part 4 code.
http://sonadaworks.com/
Are you an active ME? You mentioned the 71/4 AGM, do you go? This years is very local to me, hope to have my 71/4 DeWinton by then.
Regards,
Chris.
You may find this interesting, a project for a 71/4 Darjeeling with a SS boiler, with some info on the Part 4 code.
http://sonadaworks.com/
Are you an active ME? You mentioned the 71/4 AGM, do you go? This years is very local to me, hope to have my 71/4 DeWinton by then.
Regards,
Chris.
jugs
Dont wish to offend & annoy, but...
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Hi Chris,
thanks for that, what a wonderful beast,
Yes I am,
yes I do, but sadly going to miss Swindon (will be on a canal boat in Yorkshire) .
7¼ deWinton sounds nice
Will send PM later. edit PM sent
john
Last edited:
chriskelland
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Hi All, John,
Have found out that Australia has been using SS model boilers under dispensation from existing boiler codes and that a test code for SS boilers has been very recently approved, and is due to be printed very soon. Also, have heard that some in this country are keen to get SS boilers approved. I think this can only be good for the hobby. I would not personally want to build a stainless boiler but those that do should be able to. As said previously SS is used a lot in industry and there is now a lot of experience in it's use so why not let Model Engineers use it?
I have a new loco arriving sometime late summer that has a copper boiler, but is all Tig welded. These have produced some Luddite mumblings over the last couple of years, but you have to move on.
My latest task at the Railway is to add additional bracing to the 5" raised track anti tip rail. I hope to be finished by next winter. I'll try to remember to get some pictures this weekend.
Rgards,
Chris.
Have found out that Australia has been using SS model boilers under dispensation from existing boiler codes and that a test code for SS boilers has been very recently approved, and is due to be printed very soon. Also, have heard that some in this country are keen to get SS boilers approved. I think this can only be good for the hobby. I would not personally want to build a stainless boiler but those that do should be able to. As said previously SS is used a lot in industry and there is now a lot of experience in it's use so why not let Model Engineers use it?
I have a new loco arriving sometime late summer that has a copper boiler, but is all Tig welded. These have produced some Luddite mumblings over the last couple of years, but you have to move on.
My latest task at the Railway is to add additional bracing to the 5" raised track anti tip rail. I hope to be finished by next winter. I'll try to remember to get some pictures this weekend.
Rgards,
Chris.
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Are small boilers not ran under quite a few dispensations anyhow? ie club inspectors, boilers running with history's, visual inspections and hydraulic testing only etc etc the list goes on..
My point being rocking the apple cart could make hobby boilers be treated the same as there large counterparts, and its possible that clubs for insurance may need to have S/S boilers tested to commercial standards......
Whats the problem with a steel boiler anyhow?
My point being rocking the apple cart could make hobby boilers be treated the same as there large counterparts, and its possible that clubs for insurance may need to have S/S boilers tested to commercial standards......
Whats the problem with a steel boiler anyhow?
chriskelland
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Hi Snowcat,
Whilst you are quite correct about dispensations from PSSR 2000, however I was referring specifically to the Australian situation that lead to the approval of SS model boilers and the production of the new code 4 last month.
As far as rocking apple carts is concerned I take your point, however I think that the question of SS model boilers can proceed but it is really a question of how the insurers and HSE want to play it.
There is no problem with steel boilers, provided they are correctly maintained.
Chris.
