Source for long pieces of HSS

[Dr.Al]

Does anyone here know of a place where you can buy long (300 mm/12" ish) round bars of HSS in about 12 mm (1/2" would be fine) diameter?

I'm after the sort of thing that you could make one of these out of if you were a masochist and fancied a lot of grinding. I'd like to have a go at making a couple of custom wood lathe tools (involving a LOT less grinding than the one in that link) and the round bar stock would be a nice basis. I could make them out of silver steel but then I'd have to be that much more careful of it heating up when using it (and regrinding it).

 

[pedrobedro]

Tool steel would be easily available, search for O1 in the size you need.

 

[Kram]

O1 and silversteel both suffer loss of hardness at temperature.

Could I suggest, theres no need for the whole length to be HSS, using plain steel and tig welding a 10mm or so cutting edge using 3mm HSS rod as filler

Perhaps simpler would be to braze a short HSS bar on the end.

I remember HSS should be tempered at 500c or so after welding.

 

[optima21]

aliexpress if you're prepared to wait, and add VAT to the prices

12mm 12.5mm 13mm OD 300mm Length HSS W4241 HRC61-63 Jobber Drill Bit Boring Out Round CNC Cutting Turning Lathe Tool Bar Rod - AliExpress 1420

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[Brad93]

Does anyone here know of a place where you can buy long (300 mm/12" ish) round bars of HSS in about 12 mm (1/2" would be fine) diameter?

I'm after the sort of thing that you could make one of these out of if you were a masochist and fancied a lot of grinding. I'd like to have a go at making a couple of custom wood lathe tools (involving a LOT less grinding than the one in that link) and the round bar stock would be a nice basis. I could make them out of silver steel but then I'd have to be that much more careful of it heating up when using it (and regrinding it).

Drill rod

 

[Kram]

If 250mm is long enough you could use solid tungsten carbide.

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Maker]

Try Drill Service Horley, can't see 300mm but they've got 914mm blanks which they (or you) could cut down.

 

[Agroshield]

With the item you show, it is noted as 300mm long. Approximately half that length is the milled groove. Why is that milled groove so long? Is that necessary in order to use the tool in a deep bowl? Or is it just provided so it can be sharpened 'forever'?

If the groove is not needed to be so long, I would go for a modification of kram's idea: use a standard piece of HSS at the end to form the cutting edge. Let us say the HSS is 100mm long. Mill the groove 70mm long. Either drill a hole in the end (with a carbide end mill) or turn down the end (with a CBN insert) to form a spigot and socket joint and then silver solder (paste) to a plain steel shaft to produce the rest of the length.

If it were possible to make the shaft out of carbide, that would give extra stiffness, and much easier machining on the HSS cutting end. Carbide and HSS will silver solder well, but I have not thought through a practical method of joining the HSS to the carbide (drilling a hole in the carbide to form the socket is out (EDM!); perhaps diamond grinding its diameter smaller and forming the socket in the HSS would be possible).

Cutwel do up to 200mm: https://www.cutwel.co.uk/hss-din4964-round-tool-blanks-70021-series-presto-presto-70021

Vermont Gauge sell something ot match your original request (https://vermontgage.com/gaging-products/hss-blanks page 99 of the catalogue). Drill Service say they source their blanks from Ohio Gauge, so have a look at their offerings to see if that is a possibility.

 

[Kram]

If it were possible to make the shaft out of carbide, that would give extra stiffness, and much easier machining on the HSS cutting end. Carbide and HSS will silver solder well, but I have not thought through a practical method of joining the HSS to the carbide (drilling a hole in the carbide to form the socket is out (EDM!); perhaps diamond grinding its diameter smaller and forming the socket in the HSS would be possible).

Carbide shank boring bars are joined in many ways, some are a ground V joint, or cone, others are a plain butt joint. I'm told it makes little difference to the strength or properties of the joint, but I'd favour the V joint.

For wood turning, carbide would have greater abrasion resistance. Given its the primary choice for router bits and other sharp wood tools I imagine it should be quite good for this purpose too.

 

[Agroshield]

For wood turning, carbide would have greater abrasion resistance. Given its the primary choice for router bits and other sharp wood tools I imagine it should be quite good for this purpose too.

I am thinking of how he would form the groove in the first place and then how he would sharpen the tool as an ongoing requirement in the second place. If you choose carbide, you have backed yourself into a corner with both these necessary operations.

 

[Dr.Al]

Thanks for all the quick replies

Tool steel would be easily available, search for O1 in the size you need.

That suffers from the same problem as the silver steel I mentioned in the post: it suffers from heating up too much so I'd have to be much more careful regrinding it (and using it when turning bits of wood at high speed).

Drill rod

Isn't that just the American name for silver steel? I'm not sure how that helps.

O1 and silversteel both suffer loss of hardness at temperature.

Could I suggest, theres no need for the whole length to be HSS, using plain steel and tig welding a 10mm or so cutting edge using 3mm HSS rod as filler

Perhaps simpler would be to braze a short HSS bar on the end.

I remember HSS should be tempered at 500c or so after welding.

Thanks @Kram, that's an interesting idea. I'm not sure I'd feel confident trying to temper at 500°C (perhaps when I've made my heat treatment oven). Brazing might be viable I suppose.

aliexpress if you're prepared to wait, and add VAT to the prices

12mm 12.5mm 13mm OD 300mm Length HSS W4241 HRC61-63 Jobber Drill Bit Boring Out Round CNC Cutting Turning Lathe Tool Bar Rod - AliExpress 1420

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Oooh, your searching skills are obviously much better than mine! Thank you! I've ordered three of them.

Try Drill Service Horley, can't see 300mm but they've got 914mm blanks which they (or you) could cut down.

Aha, it's nice to know there's somewhere in the UK that sells such things, thank you. I think I'll go for the aliexpress link though: given that it's just for experimentation, three 300 mm bars for £37 is a bit more appealing than one 914 mm bar for £120 (probably plus VAT, so £144). Thanks anyway, it's much appreciated.

I expect the drill service Horley ones will be better quality (in particular tighter diameter tolerance, but I don't care about that), but the aliexpress ones will hopefully do what I need.

If 250mm is long enough you could use solid tungsten carbide.

Pardon our interruption...

I'm not sure how well that would work as a wood turning tool. Isn't carbide a lot more brittle? If so it sounds a bit scary having a long length of it being battered by a bit of spinning knotty wood. Wood turning (at least at my skill level) often involves a lot of interrupted cuts (recovering from c*ck ups!) and on the metal lathe at least I tend to avoid carbide when doing interrupted cuts.

With the item you show, it is noted as 300mm long. Approximately half that length is the milled groove. Why is that milled groove so long? Is that necessary in order to use the tool in a deep bowl? Or is it just provided so it can be sharpened 'forever'?

No idea, but my guess would be so it can be sharpened "forever". The flute definitely needs to be relatively long, but I would imagine that an inch or two would be plenty. I'm far from an expert though.

The type of tools I'm planning on making will only have shaping done on about 30 mm at the end (and nothing as complicated to grind as a flute).

If the groove is not needed to be so long, I would go for a modification of kram's idea: use a standard piece of HSS at the end to form the cutting edge. Let us say the HSS is 100mm long. Mill the groove 70mm long. Either drill a hole in the end (with a carbide end mill) or turn down the end (with a CBN insert) to form a spigot and socket joint and then silver solder (paste) to a plain steel shaft to produce the rest of the length.

If it were possible to make the shaft out of carbide, that would give extra stiffness, and much easier machining on the HSS cutting end. Carbide and HSS will silver solder well, but I have not thought through a practical method of joining the HSS to the carbide (drilling a hole in the carbide to form the socket is out (EDM!); perhaps diamond grinding its diameter smaller and forming the socket in the HSS would be possible).

I've never tried any sort of machining (unless you count grinding as machining) on HSS or carbide., it all sounds rather scary!

Cutwel do up to 200mm: https://www.cutwel.co.uk/hss-din4964-round-tool-blanks-70021-series-presto-presto-70021

Vermont Gauge sell something ot match your original request (https://vermontgage.com/gaging-products/hss-blanks page 99 of the catalogue). Drill Service say they source their blanks from Ohio Gauge, so have a look at their offerings to see if that is a possibility.

Thanks for that: useful links.

 

[Memmeddu]

O1 and silversteel both suffer loss of hardness at temperature.

Could I suggest, theres no need for the whole length to be HSS, using plain steel and tig welding a 10mm or so cutting edge using 3mm HSS rod as filler

Perhaps simpler would be to braze a short HSS bar on the end.

I remember HSS should be tempered at 500c or so after welding.

HSS in my knowledge is hardened in a molten salts bath at 500°C
But the hss bar has to be glowing white and then put into the 500°C salt solution .
At least that's what I know but.
If the piece is long enough it will not even suffer from the Tig welding

 

[Brad93]

Drill rod should be HSS - not Silver steel (which is just carbon steel)

 

[Kram]

I am thinking of how he would form the groove in the first place and then how he would sharpen the tool as an ongoing requirement in the second place. If you choose carbide, you have backed yourself into a corner with both these necessary operations.

I would not want to mill HSS although turning is ok with CBN. The best method of removal would be grinding, luckily diamond grinding wheels are relatively inexpensive.

 

[Dr.Al]

Drill rod should be HSS - not Silver steel (which is just carbon steel)

I guess the term must be used for multiple different things. I know the Americans use the term to mean silver steel or O1 tool steel (e.g. here, here and here); I've never seen the term used in the UK (when I google it, everything I find is links to American sites talking about silver steel but calling it drill rod).

 

[Kram]

I am thinking of how he would form the groove in the first place and then how he would sharpen the tool as an ongoing requirement in the second place. If you choose carbide, you have backed yourself into a corner with both these necessary operations.

I would not want to mill HSS although turning is ok with CBN. The best method of removal would be grinding, luckily diamond grinding wheels are relatively inexpensive.

I'm not sure how well that would work as a wood turning tool. Isn't carbide a lot more brittle? If so it sounds a bit scary having a long length of it being battered by a bit of spinning knotty wood. Wood turning (at least at my skill level) often involves a lot of interrupted cuts (recovering from c*ck ups!) and on the metal lathe at least I tend to avoid carbide when doing interrupted cuts.

I'd quite happily take interupted cuts with a carbide bar and insert on the lathe with it held rigidly, that makes some quite high peak stresses, no problems. Carbide is extremely strong and you have to be doing something silly to damage it. Most of my inserts get damaged by bumping the work peice.

On a wood lathe I believe the tool is held with floppy human hands, loosely against a rest, so is quite free to move about. Wood is also quite bendy and great at absorbing and dampening forces. No chance of snapping it.

So yes it is more brittle, its also 3x stiffer than steel, but I wouldnt consider either property to be particually relevant. Double the weight might be a concern if the task of turning, is tiring on the arms?

Thanks @Kram, that's an interesting idea. I'm not sure I'd feel confident trying to temper at 500°C (perhaps when I've made my heat treatment oven). Brazing might be viable I suppose

Tempering when I've done it, just heated in air until the surrounding steel colour changes. The HSS area will have a far more pronounced colour change.
One of my experiments was here and I still often use it, not needed any sharping yet.
Some pics of the turned HSS which was done with a normal carbide insert.

Stuff you have made today

good excuse to go get the bike then, you could get a full roll in they paniers nae bother..... :whistle: :laughing:

www.mig-welding.co.uk

 

[Brad93]

I would not want to mill HSS although turning is ok with CBN. The best method of removal would be grinding, luckily diamond grinding wheels are relatively inexpensive.



I'd quite happily take interupted cuts with a carbide bar and insert on the lathe with it held rigidly, that makes some quite high peak stresses, no problems. Carbide is extremely strong and you have to be doing something silly to damage it. Most of my inserts get damaged by bumping the work peice.

On a wood lathe I believe the tool is held with floppy human hands, loosely against a rest, so is quite free to move about. Wood is also quite bendy and great at absorbing and dampening forces. No chance of snapping it.

So yes it is more brittle, its also 3x stiffer than steel, but I wouldnt consider either property to be particually relevant. Double the weight might be a concern if the task of turning, is tiring on the arms?



Tempering when I've done it, just heated in air until the surrounding steel colour changes. The HSS area will have a far more pronounced colour change.
One of my experiments was here and I still often use it, not needed any sharping yet.
Some pics of the turned HSS which was done with a normal carbide insert.

Stuff you have made today

good excuse to go get the bike then, you could get a full roll in they paniers nae bother..... :whistle: :laughing:

www.mig-welding.co.uk

You don't want diamond for HSS it just gums the wheel up, CBN or plain carborundum

 

[Kram]

I meant for carbide.

 

[Maker]

I would not want to mill HSS although turning is ok with CBN. The best method of removal would be grinding, luckily diamond grinding wheels are relatively inexpensive.

Carbide cuts HSS without too much grief, no need for CBN.

 

[Islander71]

If 250mm is long enough you could use solid tungsten carbide.

Pardon our interruption...

I could do with some of this cut to the right length as the pressure pad for my bandsaw. How can you cut solid tungsten carbide?