sip turbo 150 migmate stuck on

[bri]

hiya all
does any one know why my migmate starts to wire feed and weld at the moment the red switch is turned on
even though the trigger is free and has been disconected to eliminate that,
yet it makes no difference,
the welder starts to operate at switch on with no control,
its a few years old now but not used much, and i dont know what is on the pcb re circuit or where to get a new one if it is faulty,
does any body have any suggestions i cant imagin a relay being stuck from startup
thanks for your time
brian,,

 

[shenion]

Most likely it is a stuck relay on the PCB. The SIP's use a relay that can't handle the current well and either the contacts burn out or they weld closed.

 

[bri]

thanks scott
if i've got this right i cant even find my way around this site hi hi,
but thanks for your reply to me,
i aint got a clue regarding and takin part in forums so i could not reply sooner,
and i'm hoping this will find you scott,
i have sent a couple of emails to sip who made this thing but i have had no replys from them,
i'm sure someone has had the same problem as me and solved it i don't want to attack the pcb because i dont know where to get another one from yet,,
so cheers scott,,
brian,,,

 

[Till]

Hi Bri, have had a couple of sip welders and the relays have burnt out. I've bought new pcb's and they've been fine after. If i remember correctly i think they're about £50. If you can't get hold of one i'll give you the number of my local welding supplies shop where i bought the last one.

 

[bri]

sip 150 turbo stuck on

THANKS for sugesting the relay on the pcb,
i don't know what is what on the pcb mabe i could get a new biger relay if i new the circuit of the pcb i can use a solering iron hi hi,
i don't want to damage the board if i can repair the cicuit,
so i need a diagram for the pcb
do you know where the relay is on the sip's 150 turbo pcb so i could check it out,
thanks again for your time
regards brian,

 

[Jake SS]

THANKS for sugesting the relay on the pcb,
i don't know what is what on the pcb mabe i could get a new biger relay if i new the circuit of the pcb i can use a solering iron hi hi,
i don't want to damage the board if i can repair the cicuit,
so i need a diagram for the pcb
do you know where the relay is on the sip's 150 turbo pcb so i could check it out,
thanks again for your time
regards brian,

Dont take this the wrong way but if you dont know where the relay is I dont think you should attempt to fix the PCB on your own.

Cheers

 

[bri]

relay u/s

ok jake i take your point,,
i put it down wrong i have got the relay off the pcb ok, and yes i did know where it was but i dont know wether it should be normaly open or closed,
i take your point dont go into the un known hi hi,, the two contacts where
closed and a bit black'nd the relay top came off easily but the base was broken into two halves and simply held in place by the soldering to the pcb,
but it could be seen the contacts are touching, thats why i need a circuit diagram to see if they should be like that un powerd,
i'm sorry if i misled you and any body else who read my bit,

the next suspected compone is the big pot 2k2 A, that holds it to the front as i cant get a solid resistance from end to end when the wiper is turned it acts like there is dirt on its track or its broken so i am now looking for these two bits to replace if i can find them anywhere,, two e-mails to SIP got no responce yet,

i still need any tips,
thanks,,

 

[malcolm]

The relay should be open - that's likely what's causing the wire feed to start as soon as you switch the welder on. Relay faults are quite common - others have fitted replacements.

I can't think of a wiring diagram anywhere, but the circuit is fairly straightforward. If you happen to trace it out do load a copy onto the forum.

 

[bri]

ok malcolm
if i sort it out i'll let people know how i did it,
i have found the relay but its an american firm (ZETTLER.COM) AZ725 SPST is the relay the 6 pin version of the two shown,
i've sent a mail for an address of any supplyers over here in the uk i have downloaded the full spec of it in a PDF to keep,
i have also tried to phone SIP, but its not recognized the number on the back of the manual so they aint much help un les someone has a number that will get through to them they can pass on,

you are correct the contacts are normaly open but they where not stuck or bent so they must have been made to be very very close to each other because they look fine the only thing what looked bad was the blacknes on the contacts and a bit inside the lid when i got it off but they where touching,
i'll probably end up haveing to use another relay at least i know this one's coil is 250 ohms resistance and is 12 volts, so we're getting there slowly hi hi,
thanks again for your reply all points are noted,
brian,,

 

[Jake SS]

ok malcolm
if i sort it out i'll let people know how i did it,
i have found the relay but its an american firm (ZETTLER.COM) AZ725 SPST is the relay the 6 pin version of the two shown,
i've sent a mail for an address of any supplyers over here in the uk i have downloaded the full spec of it in a PDF to keep,
i have also tried to phone SIP, but its not recognized the number on the back of the manual so they aint much help un les someone has a number that will get through to them they can pass on,

you are correct the contacts are normaly open but they where not stuck or bent so they must have been made to be very very close to each other because they look fine the only thing what looked bad was the blacknes on the contacts and a bit inside the lid when i got it off but they where touching,
i'll probably end up haveing to use another relay at least i know this one's coil is 250 ohms resistance and is 12 volts, so we're getting there slowly hi hi,
thanks again for your reply all points are noted,
brian,,

An equivalent relay should be available at any large electronics outlet

Cheers

 

[Topmig170]

Hi,

RS components in the UK can supply a suitable heavy duty 12V DC coil, 240V 30A contact relay.

The part number is 245-2059 and the web address is:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=245-2059

In fact this relay is the one SIP used in my Topmig 170.

It may need to be mounted remotely from the PCB and the appropriate wires extended to it. Not a DIY job unless you are familiar with soldering, mains wiring and electrical safety (not preaching, just wouldn't want anyone getting electrocuted).

Hope this helps.

Peter

 

[bri]

thanks peter
i did try an automotive relay similar to the one you show but no joy so it could be the relay coil's resistance too low to switch the contacts,
my multi meter shows 250 ohm's on original relay coil, the one i tryed was about 150 ohm,

im now thinking of the brige rectifier this is were i'm geting lost ie not haveing a diagram for the pcb as i don't know the circuit altogether too well,

i have tryed ringing SIP but am told no such number as on the manual yet i have seen that on another forum i looked at today that sip are very helpfull when you ring them so someone must have a number that works hi hi,

while i have been stuck for a while i decided to do a liner replace with curtain wire and boy what a difference ther is to the drag of wire its amasing how light it pulls or pushes through now, its the same diamiter as the original plastic stuff, id seen this idea on another forum too so i cant take any credit for the idea, but also cycle brake cable outer was suggested but i think that would be a tiny bit large for the liner ends to fit, ( i cant conferm that ),

its a pity curtain wire aint stainless steel but it is robust stuff,

so thanks again peter for your picture i have not got round to being able to do that yet myself as i am new to forums and 64 years old,

if any body has SIP's real telephone number that is working for the shepshed
company please pass it on if it works,

still in the dark yet,
thank you all
brian,

 

[Jake SS]

Can you take a close up pic of the PCB and post it?

Cheers
Jake

 

[bri]

re pic's

thanks jake
you asked me to post a pic of my pc boaed ive taken a coupe of pic's but as i'm new to this i don't know how to add then to this unless someone show's me how to do it i will have to keep trying hi hi

it seems to have worked now jake,,
brian,,,

 

[Topmig170]

Hi Bri,

To refresh, your welder both feeds wire and welding current when you switch it on. A faulty switch or wires in the torch would cause this but you say you have disconnected these? Use your multimeter to test the following:

Put the torch back onto the welder with all the wires connected as they should be.

Disconnect the 4 way multiplug connecter that normally plugs onto the socket nearest the little blue trimmer at the top edge of your PCB.

With the multiplug connector unplugged you should be able to measure the resistance on the two torch switch wires. Measure both across the switch (with the trigger open ie not pressed down) and from each side of the switch to the welding tip where your weld wire emerges.

It should be an open circuit (ie resistance so high it is off the scale or display of your multimeter). Remember the wires could be damaged and shorting in the torch liner even if the torch switch is working normally.

If all measures open circuit you will know for sure that the trigger switch and liner wiring is OK.

This then leaves the PCB circuit you are currently investigating. The relay might well have been faulty, its a moving part after all and looks a very poor choice for switching the current in a welder that size.

However a like for like replacement is quick and easy and you could always carry a couple of spares for next time.

RS components also sell Zettler relays, see here:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/...1&selectAttribute=American Zettler#breadCrumb

BTW I don't work for them . Try typing in the exact relay references in the search box (I cant read them from your photo) or type in here everything written on the relay cover in your photo and I'll do a seach (the relay should only be a few quid).

Don't start desoldering the PCB components just yet.

Incidentally, SIPs contact details are:

Gelders Hall Road
Shepshed
Loughborough
LE12 9NH
Tel 01509 500300 ask for technical department

You could buy a replacement circuit board from SIP (no idea how much they charge but it probably cost around a tenner to manufacture!). If you do this make sure you have eliminated the torchtrigger and wires as above first or you money will be wasted.

Here's a circuit diagram for the TOPMIG150 welder (probably very similar to yours), note it doesn't include the PCB circuit details.

Peter

 

[Jake SS]

Hi Bri,

To refresh, your welder both feeds wire and welding current when you switch it on. A faulty switch or wires in the torch would cause this but you say you have disconnected these? Use your multimeter to test the following:

Put the torch back onto the welder with all the wires connected as they should be.

Disconnect the 4 way multiplug connecter that normally plugs onto the socket nearest the little blue trimmer at the top edge of your PCB.

With the multiplug connector unplugged you should be able to measure the resistance on the two torch switch wires. Measure both across the switch (with the trigger open ie not pressed down) and from each side of the switch to the welding tip where your weld wire emerges.

It should be an open circuit (ie resistance so high it is off the scale or display of your multimeter). Remember the wires could be damaged and shorting in the torch liner even if the torch switch is working normally.

If all measures open circuit you will know for sure that the trigger switch and liner wiring is OK.

This then leaves the PCB circuit you are currently investigating. The relay might well have been faulty, its a moving part after all and looks a very poor choice for switching the current in a welder that size.

However a like for like replacement is quick and easy and you could always carry a couple of spares for next time.

RS components also sell Zettler relays, see here:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/...1&selectAttribute=American Zettler#breadCrumb

BTW I don't work for them . Try typing in the exact relay references in the search box (I cant read them from your photo) or type in here everything written on the relay cover in your photo and I'll do a seach (the relay should only be a few quid).

Don't start desoldering the PCB components just yet.

Incidentally, SIPs contact details are:

Gelders Hall Road
Shepshed
Loughborough
LE12 9NH
Tel 01509 500300 ask for technical department

You could buy a replacement circuit board from SIP (no idea how much they charge but it probably cost around a tenner to manufacture!). If you do this make sure you have eliminated the torchtrigger and wires as above first or you money will be wasted.

Here's a circuit diagram for the TOPMIG150 welder (probably very similar to yours), note it doesn't include the PCB circuit details.

Peter

Can you repost the circuit diagram, I cant quite make it out

Cheers

Jake

 

[Jake SS]

Do as Topmig suggests as it would appear that the trigger wires are shorted or touching somewhere, but if relay is closing when you switch it on and trigger circuit is isolated then maybe your connections are not right. If you are still having trouble can you draw where all the wires are terminated to? And post it

Cheers

Jake

 

[Topmig170]

Hi Jake

It's a really poor print of the circuit diagram in the manual. The paper is so thin the images on the reverse show through!

I'll run a pen over it to thicken the lines in the next day or so and post it again together with the diagram for the Topmig 170 and 195.

Pete

 

[Jake SS]

Hi Jake

It's a really poor print of the circuit diagram in the manual. The paper is so thin the images on the reverse show through!

I'll run a pen over it to thicken the lines in the next day or so and post it again together with the diagram for the Topmig 170 and 195.

Pete

Cheers thanks

Jake

 

[bri]

THANKS YOU PETER
i have checked the 2 wire's at the welder end that go to the brass bit in the torch end and the the trigger they are open circuit untill the trigger is pulled then i get a dead short that tells me the wires are ok,

i found the correct relay on RS's website thanks,

i have a relay like your picture shows from my junk box and its working so i think i will end up using it or one similar as you shown,

i may have solved one problem and got another i asked my son to reconect the wires for me to the pcb the ones that push onto the three prong's that are marked R.S.T., he conected the S ok but the other two where the wrong way round and i had not noticed untill it was too late i switched on the power and blew the fuses in the extention cable i was using,

at the moment i have disconnected the pcb again i think the components have gone hi hi,,
ok my own failt i just hope now the main transformer is ok cos now the on light comes on so does the fan the wires to the torch end seem ok after your test thanks again,

i think the on pcb's transformer's secondery winding has blown on the pcb and also the little bridge rectifier,,, and a fat diode has shown open cicuit when i checked it so i may go for a new a slightly larger transformer for the wire feed motor and link it to the pcb via link cables as with the new relay i'll now probably use,

i have got to check out the welding transformer ciruit and its diode's now i'll let you all know if i'm able to when if i succeed,,,,

thanks for all the info you supplied peter it was gratefully received,
all of whitch was informative to me,
thanks for your info jake as well,

i got the pictures to work ok thats another thing i've learned how to do,

i would still like to have a circuit diagram of the pcb if any one can post one
on here it's a MIGO4 PCB,
again a million thanks
brian