One off machinery and h&s advise.

[Ton-up]

Hiya. I have been a maintenance/tool fitter/etc all my working life, I am now 49, and in all the companies I have worked for, I have made bespoke machinery for whatever needs doing. Am now in the woodwork industry and since starting here 14 years ago, I've made quite a few machines for specialist machining and finishing processes. All these I have made with h&s in mind, from guarding to low volt electrics, etc.

The company employes a h&s consultant to advise our h&s manager. He has been coming for about 8 years. On his visit last month he has condemmed a few of the machines I have made because 'they are not CE marked'. These include a hydraulic press (which I can maybe understand because of hydraulic pressures) but some of the others like sanding/buffing/de-nibbing, I cannot, as I thought that as they were for our own use, CE marking was not needed.
Now researching this I am not so sure, as some say they are termed 'put into service' and need CE ing and others say they only need to meet the CE regs.

Does anyone have any experience of making 'in-house' machinery and steps taken?

Thanks.

 

[no idea]

The HSE website has the following paragraph which to me means machines for own use (in a commercial environment, so not home use machines) require CE marking.

Who should undertake CE marking?
CE marking is the responsibility of the person who places the product on the market, or puts it into service, for the first time. In law this duty rests with the Responsible Person, which in most cases is either the manufacturer or the manufacturer's authorised (in writing) representative, but can also include those who import non CE marked products into Europe, any user in Europe who makes a product for their own use, and those who modify existing products already in use to such an extent they must be considered "new" products.

The full text is on this page:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/ce-mark-summary.htm

 

[steve_s]

I have read on net that a lot of stuff coming out of china with CE marks means nothing more than china export how true that is I don't know,
but some of the stuff iv seen from china is well just not good ??????

 

[dobbslc]

Get a new "consultant" maybe from an engineering background rather than a pen pushing one......

 

[WorkshopChris]

Sounds like your consultant would be better sticking to an office environment, as long as the machines meet all the relevant h&s requirements then all is ok.
I also build one-off machines and tooling had a similar issue with some clown in a nice suit, in the end, the company involved got a consultant from the insurance company to do a report on the machine and it was found to be fully compliant in every way apart from the fact it didn't have a CE Mark.
I am not aware of a single H&S prosecution due to a machine not having a CE mark from the manufacturer.

 

[gavcarter]

Job done

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/331841054489

 

[Pete.]

I am not aware of a single H&S prosecution due to a machine not having a CE mark from the manufacturer.

They are so financially stretched that it wouldn't make sense to do it. If someone had an accident on a machine that wasn't CE marked AND the accident was as a result of a non-compliant part or condition on that machine then I could see them considering a prosecution but as far as simply not having it certified I think they have bigger fish to fry and more important ways of spending their money.

Especially since PUWER regs require the machine to be periodically inspected and recorded anyway. I bet that they could pick someone up for that somehow on every single visit they ever made.

 

[WorkshopChris]

My work takes me into all sorts of workshops from one man bands to multinational companies, I could count on one hand the number of times you see proper inspection records, most of the time they don't exist, or its a log that never leaves the office and just gets filled in at regular periods with the odd comment to make it look a little realistic.
Personally, i feel the need to be more focused on the operators than the designers.
I have considered giving up and there are a few customers who I have stopped working for. It would be impractical to interlock every component part of a machine, but when an operator deliberately removed covers.
Now in the event, in an accident, i may be liable, yet I am not the clown who deliberately removed parts and didn't refit them before starting work.

 

[Parm]

First things first find out who this H&S consultant works for and what his qualifications are in such matters

We have just finished a major round of inspections in the wood working industry. There are two H&S providers that seem to have cornered the market. They shall remain nameless in open forum but they are useless. I’ve taken a few of thier idiots to task for dodgy advice, it turns out that they have never been in a wood working factory yet they felt they could give advice

 

[Ton-up]

I agree with everything said. I must admit that this guy is an arrogant slob, but reading the hse guidelines, the ones no idea posted above, and other pages from CE companies, he seems correct.
If he is right, it probably means spending about £4 million pounds on new machinery!!
I always though that PUWER regs were the ones to stick to.

 

[WorkshopChris]

If it is ok under PUWER and all the individual directives that make up the CE regs then its ok(the hardest to prove are all the rf and emf emissions) Again its not worth the paper it is written on even the bigger global manufacturers have been proved to sell parts that comply but do not) the whole thing is a joke and the HSE are fully aware of that. I can not think of the wording off the top of my head but there is a HSE document all about purchasing and operating new equipment and it says along the lines of the machine must be CE marked (obviously to keep Europe happy). It then continues to say even though the machine may be CE marked you need to ensure that it complies with PUWER and is safe to put into service.

 

[no idea]

I agree with everything said. I must admit that this guy is an arrogant slob, but reading the hse guidelines, the ones no idea posted above, and other pages from CE companies, he seems correct.
If he is right, it probably means spending about £4 million pounds on new machinery!!
I always though that PUWER regs were the ones to stick to.

I never thought CE was relevant for one off machines, because in what way does it make sense to go through a full accreditation process for one machine?

It'd be similar to getting the full CoC for a kit car...

If it were me I'd be seeking much further advice, and I'd bet @Parm would have a few starting points

Looking further at the HSE website and a couple of directives that are likely to apply e.g. machinery directive, it is likely that you can undertake an assessment of conformity using internal checks and produce your own technical files as required by the directives. It the consultant and H&S manager don't know this and have condemned machines outright then it sounds like they don't fully understand what is required and why. If the machines have been designed and built with the applicable regulations in mind, it will be more of an internal paperwork process to produce the risk assessments, technical files, declarations of conformity etc. rather than having to use external approval bodies. Yes it will require some time and effort (which will be a cost to the company), but nowhere near the £4m value of the machines that you have built.

* Ton up - to put my posts into context, I don't have direct experience with "in house" machinery as such but I work in the rail industry where I deal with similar regulations and approvals so my posts are based on my experience in another industry but where I have experienced similar things with ill informed people spouting incomplete or misunderstood rules and regulations as absolute requirements incorrectly.

 

[dannyp]

i've built quite a few 1 off machenes none of them have ever had a CE mark on them, tho the motors and VFD's all have so if those parts comply the machene should would be intresting to know how much the CE mark chould end up costing to inpliment if they need them. as it chould make building one off machenes compltly unviable

 

[8ob]

I have been building one off forestry machines for the last thirty years none of which carry any CE markings. They are either H&S compliant or not, its not rocket science and in the main forestry/ag machinery compliance centers around the safe and secure guarding of rotating/moving assemblies, inside a factory I would imagine noise, electrical and vibration come into play. More important is operator training, the only mishaps we get to see in our game are when an untrained/ unqualified oppo jumps into a machine like the one below. We had to be cut him out of the cab when he raked up a load of timber, crowded the rake and speared the cab with huge logs. He nearly killed himself but you will never fix stupid and at the end of the day its down to me as an employer to make sure untrained staff dont get a chance to operate machines.

 

[Rannsachair]

Some years ago I used to design Hydraulic test stands for the products we manufactured: mainly steering valves, priority valves, pumps and hydraulic motors. In time we started supplying our other factories around the world with test stands so I started CE marking. Up to 5000 psi and incorporating an induction oven to preheat valves prior to test. From memory (15+ years ago)it was common sense stuff like carrying out a Failure Mode Effect Analysis, having an operator and maintenance manual and a design manual covering basic calcs on the components I had designed: manifold blocks etc. It was not a massive amount of additional work. Though spent more time looking up what needed done for CE marking than additional work to document it.

 

[Kent]

This reminds me of the "engineer" who came to fix my "all electric" induction range at home.

He told me my "gas" supply pipe to it was not to regulation. Mmm, he did not get paid!

 

[Ton-up]

Looking further, It seems that you should CE mark any bespoke machinery for your own use.

From here..

http://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/faq-ce.htm

If I make a product for my own use, do I need to CE mark it?
It depends on the product but you must CE mark work equipment that comes under the Machinery Directive and make sure it meets all of its essential health and safety requirements - even if it is only for your own use and you have no intention of supplying it to other parties.


And from here..

http://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/new-machinery.htm

Users who make machinery for their own use also have the full manufactures' responsibilities for CE marking and compliance with the Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations. This must be done before they put the machine into service for the first time. Users who directly import non-CE marked machinery from outside the EEA also have to meet the Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations as if they were the manufacturer.


Hope I am wrong!!

 

[winchman]

My immediate concern.
How good is the consultant?
Its not rocket science to CE mark a machine so why doesn't he just sort it?
I hold a few H&S quals and all too often I have seen self appointed experts who are wrong and have no concept or just over complicate things, as Parm said check your expert.

 

[DaveB]

Is it necessary to retrospectively mark machinery built before the CE regs came into being ?

 

[winchman]

Is it necessary to retrospectively mark machinery built before the CE regs came into being ?

As far as I am aware no but best plan is to write to the HSE and ask.