- Thread starter shockre
- Start date
AVENLEY 10
Member
- Messages
- 53
Hi
Probably difference in shape is for ease of indentification by Lincoln and I would not be surprised if they are from two different suppliers with the cheaper being chinese.Personally I would go for the more expensive tips because the cheaper ones are purer copper with less alloyed material and will aneal with the heat so wearing out quicker.You pays your money and takes your pick.
Probably difference in shape is for ease of indentification by Lincoln and I would not be surprised if they are from two different suppliers with the cheaper being chinese.Personally I would go for the more expensive tips because the cheaper ones are purer copper with less alloyed material and will aneal with the heat so wearing out quicker.You pays your money and takes your pick.
In the case of some companies the reason for tapered and non tapered tips is if you using a large or small dia gas nozzle, the tapered tip for the small nozzle so that you have more gas & spatter space around it.
For interest, the best welding tips are pure copper, not alloyed copper, this was proved years ago at Aachen University, the welding industry has perpetuated this con for years as it allows them to charge more for these "better tips".
Reality is that alloyed tips do not wear the tip hole as fast as pure copper but are inferior electrically in power transfer and with heat dissipation - the 2 important functions of a tip.
The study showed that before the enlargement of the tip hole became a problem the tip had electrically deteriated to a unusable state, therefore the pure copper tip was the better and cheaper solution.
Most companies who supply high automation systems (robotics etc) will only use pure copper tips.
I think you will find the tips coming from questionable countries are infact highly alloyed with all sorts of cheap crap.
For interest, the best welding tips are pure copper, not alloyed copper, this was proved years ago at Aachen University, the welding industry has perpetuated this con for years as it allows them to charge more for these "better tips".
Reality is that alloyed tips do not wear the tip hole as fast as pure copper but are inferior electrically in power transfer and with heat dissipation - the 2 important functions of a tip.
The study showed that before the enlargement of the tip hole became a problem the tip had electrically deteriated to a unusable state, therefore the pure copper tip was the better and cheaper solution.
Most companies who supply high automation systems (robotics etc) will only use pure copper tips.
I think you will find the tips coming from questionable countries are infact highly alloyed with all sorts of cheap crap.
As far as I am aware no-one uses or even makes pure Copper tips. Some of the cheap ones are CuP alloy but the better quality ones are CuZ or CuCrBe, in other words alloyed. These alloys are more expensive, they are not full of "cheap crap".
Try doing a google. This is just one site of many that contradicts your "theory"
http://www.finn-tips.com/Alloy-Choice-Guide.htm
And, why on earth would the "welding industry" con its customers. Ill informed comments like that dont help anyone
You obviously ignorant of the welding supply industry, with wire and tips it is so competative they have to look at any commercial edge or factor to make more profit.
Of course there are a few applications where an alloyed tip will give a longer tip hole life is beneficial - such as using hard wires, cored wires, reinforced wires, serrated roll driven wires etc but most technical welding engineers will agree that for the vast majority of standard steel welding wire applications a plain copper tip works excellent. There is a reason why the major players like Fronius, Cloos, Lincoln, Hobart, Kempi, Miller ect still supply plain copper tips as well as a range of "super alloyed tips".
At the end of the day the main functions for a welding tip is to transfer the current to the wire and conduct and dissipate the heat to the torch body, in this a plain copper is more efficient than any copper alloy.
If you want an unbiased view then please do not reference Tip supply companies as they will have or make you a "special" tip for anything you can afford to pay for - even dirty wire (this I got to see).
The reference to other countires is that we have seen very cheap useless tips come on to the world market from places like China and Thailand that are probably alloyed with scrap cars!
It is surprising that there is today still miss information about welding tips, the old welders beleived that when a tip got hot it shrunk the tip hole, gripping the wire and causing wire feed problems! The welding industry has known this is not correct for many years and yet I have seen companies selling special tips to stop this shrinkage - which physically can not occur as every school boy taking physics should know.
So please do not be so niave as to beleive the welding industry is straight, it probably still has more cowboys in it that any other industry.
Of course there are a few applications where an alloyed tip will give a longer tip hole life is beneficial - such as using hard wires, cored wires, reinforced wires, serrated roll driven wires etc but most technical welding engineers will agree that for the vast majority of standard steel welding wire applications a plain copper tip works excellent. There is a reason why the major players like Fronius, Cloos, Lincoln, Hobart, Kempi, Miller ect still supply plain copper tips as well as a range of "super alloyed tips".
At the end of the day the main functions for a welding tip is to transfer the current to the wire and conduct and dissipate the heat to the torch body, in this a plain copper is more efficient than any copper alloy.
If you want an unbiased view then please do not reference Tip supply companies as they will have or make you a "special" tip for anything you can afford to pay for - even dirty wire (this I got to see).
The reference to other countires is that we have seen very cheap useless tips come on to the world market from places like China and Thailand that are probably alloyed with scrap cars!
It is surprising that there is today still miss information about welding tips, the old welders beleived that when a tip got hot it shrunk the tip hole, gripping the wire and causing wire feed problems! The welding industry has known this is not correct for many years and yet I have seen companies selling special tips to stop this shrinkage - which physically can not occur as every school boy taking physics should know.
So please do not be so niave as to beleive the welding industry is straight, it probably still has more cowboys in it that any other industry.
Roy Rogers here
I wont say it out loud but I am employed by one of the Companies you have named.
Do you think Fronuis, Cloos et al make their own tips ? Dont know, I will tell you, they get them made by one of , the Tip supply companies who you dismiss so easily.
Take a look at www.lincolnelectric.com and in the corporate section look for investor news. Their profits are incredible, they obvioulsy need to cheat someone out of 10 pence for a few contact tips.
Weldequip (who knows who I am) will be peeing himself laughing.
I totally agree that there are cheap poor quality products being imported from various places and they are usually made from CuP as its the cheapest and easiest alloy to manufacture.
If you were a large customer burning lots of wire we might even supply the tips for free (in certain circumastances)
What has given you such a jaundiced view of the welding supply industry? Incidentally I am not on here for the sole purpose of having an argument with anyone. Whereabouts are you? you might like to visit us and let me try to change your opinions.
Haze
is it can be hugs tiem ?
- Messages
- 638
hmm, i dont think any industries differ in respect of profiteering etc, where there is money to be made there are people willing to adjust things to make more money, tis the way of life, a lot of people through general experience will learn to tell the difference between a good deal and a rip off, however a lot of people dont learn and thus have to part with their cash more easily, these are the same genus of people who fall for pyramid and get rich quick schemes.
hmm, i dont think any industries differ in respect of profiteering etc, where there is money to be made there are people willing to adjust things to make more money, tis the way of life, a lot of people through general experience will learn to tell the difference between a good deal and a rip off, however a lot of people dont learn and thus have to part with their cash more easily, these are the same genus of people who fall for pyramid and get rich quick schemes.
Maybe so but that hardly applies to the Welding Supply Industry. We want good customers who are happy with our supply and who will stay with us long term. We dont do rip-offs.
Absolutely, categorically, honest injun etc etc etc. We dont set out to cheat our customers in any way, shape or form, its not in our best interests and I have never heard of any of our major competitors cheating either.
Roy Rogers here
I wont say it out loud but I am employed by one of the Companies you have named.
Do you think Fronuis, Cloos et al make their own tips ? Dont know, I will tell you, they get them made by one of , the Tip supply companies who you dismiss so easily.
Take a look at www.lincolnelectric.com and in the corporate section look for investor news. Their profits are incredible, they obvioulsy need to cheat someone out of 10 pence for a few contact tips.
Weldequip (who knows who I am) will be peeing himself laughing.
I totally agree that there are cheap poor quality products being imported from various places and they are usually made from CuP as its the cheapest and easiest alloy to manufacture.
If you were a large customer burning lots of wire we might even supply the tips for free (in certain circumastances)
What has given you such a jaundiced view of the welding supply industry? Incidentally I am not on here for the sole purpose of having an argument with anyone. Whereabouts are you? you might like to visit us and let me try to change your opinions.
I like you am in the industry and infact I have worked for several of the companies listed and have been involved with the manufacture and supply of tips for both - you will find Cloos and Fronius still manufacture their own tips in Germany and Austria respectively.
Most other companies get them from the National Tip Company in the USA who today splits manufacture between the states and "Other Countries" - I do not dissmiss them, they are a necessary supplier but then again I do not beleive everything they push out, they are on par with wire and especially the gas manufacturers who in the last 20 years have fed some unbeleivable ******** to the manufacturing industry relative to exotic mixes at treble the price but really gave little or no welding advantage.
I am not really jaundiced about the industry I have worked in it for over 40 years and had a great career out of it but I am certainly not fooled by it as sadly at times we were all party to it.
40 years !!!! bloody hell I thought I was getting on a bit..........
So are you saying that you know from personal experience that Cloos and Fronius definitely make their own tips and rip off their customers ?
Haze
is it can be hugs tiem ?
- Messages
- 638
Just because you dont doesn't mean others wont, there will always be cowboys and fleecers, like i said its the way of the world.
No, please do not get me wrong, on the tip issue companies like Cloos & Fronius are not falsley ripping the customer off anymore than the other major players.
In general today the major players try hard to have a high level of buisness ethic - of this there is no question.
The rip off element in my opinion is the thousands of secondary after sales suppliers of spares and consumables that not only rip off the players big time but can get away with technical blue murder and are rarely accountable.
It is not welding manufacturing that gets really conned or caught but the small guy welding in his garage for interest or fun as he may not know the difference.
This is why this forum can be great for these guys as they are able to get expert and impartial advice.
Sorry for the tirade and spleen venting, I stopped smoking a few weeks ago and am grumpy about bloody everything.
In general today the major players try hard to have a high level of buisness ethic - of this there is no question.
The rip off element in my opinion is the thousands of secondary after sales suppliers of spares and consumables that not only rip off the players big time but can get away with technical blue murder and are rarely accountable.
It is not welding manufacturing that gets really conned or caught but the small guy welding in his garage for interest or fun as he may not know the difference.
This is why this forum can be great for these guys as they are able to get expert and impartial advice.
Sorry for the tirade and spleen venting, I stopped smoking a few weeks ago and am grumpy about bloody everything.
