Lanthanated, gold vs blue.

[hotrodder]

Ami, it's not about radiation poisening. As said it's because thorium is a known carcinogen. No grinding dust is healthy but breathing in the dust of an alloy containing small amounts of an alpha emitting alloying element is even less healthy and manufacturers don't like being sued

Lanthenum must be the worst Tungstan to use.

Why? Just curious why you don't like them

Dunno about others but i didn't ditch thoriated because the manufacturers started to bang on about cover their asses* with radioactive warnings due to the grinding dust/evaporative emissions in the arc being a known carcinogen. Like most others i tried other flavours out of curosity and found they outperformed thoriated... easier/better arc stricking and restriking, especially at low amperage. More arc time/restrikes before the tip needs touching up at higher amperage plus they also work with AC, where they also outperform zirconiated, which means i only need to buy one flavour of tungsten

While the HFT multistrikes i settled on are more spendy than cheapnese tungstens the premium is smaller when compared to top quality thoriated or 2% lanthanated etc from the likes of Diamondground/Plansee/Wolfram Industries. Buying on price alone there's virtually nothing it and thoriated is sometimes more spendy for example a quick on the bay and one seller is asking £6.80 for a pack of 10 1.6mm 2% lanthanated and £7.30 for the same size & quantity thoriated

* i don't blame them given what's happened in the past with asbestos (as mentioned) and the more recent law suits about manganism (MMA fumes and manganese poisening)

 

[Ami]

I don't mean to sound sassy, but crossing the street has the risk of getting run over. We all need to self educate about the risks and work accordingly. How many even have heard about metal smoke fever? Alu will kill you before your tungsten.

 

[hotrodder]

Why do you think aluminium welding fume is more toxic? Hexavalent chromium from welding stainless all day* i could accept as being a bigger deal than grinding a few tungstens but the predominant "risk" associated with welding aluminium is ozone according to every source i'm aware of like the HSE or http://www.boconline.co.uk/en/sheq/...ss-fume-aluminium/process-fume-aluminium.html for example. Granted welding ally typically generates more ozone than other metals but ozone is a byproduct of all processes that use an electric arc

* Even then using TIG means far less metal fume than welding with MIG or MMA as no metal is transfered across the arc

 

[Richard.]

Hard facing electrodes contain chromium 625 contains high nickel and if I wanted to sit down and reel off a list of nastys to breathe in I'd be here a while. Thoriated tungstens ain't the best out there and the dust extracted from them isn't good for you. So what!!! That's welding and if your in the welding game your either smart enough to protect yourself or you finish up earlier. There is no reason to stop using them if you want to use them just understand them, read the data sheets and be smart. Are we all going to stop using hard face electrodes because chromium is cancerous no we are going to extract the fumes away and wear the gear and get on with it. As I said in my first post this whole thorium tungsten thing is over rated and doesn't need to be addressed any different than any other welding or grinding application.
Comparing it to aspestos is daft. Your not going to need a special team of guys in space suits to come and remove a pack of tungstens out of the garage.

 

[Richard.]

I agree. Welding should not be a special case and if you read what I wrote you'd see. All dangers in welding should be covered with acceptable, practical measures to enable us to do the job safely. Extraction for example. My point here which I've seen no reason to believe it's not valid is that there is no reason for people to be silly about thoriated tungstens and say oh you can't use them as they are radioactive. While reaching for the nitric acid to do some etching. You can use thoriated tungstens you just have to adopt some precautions and get on with it.

 

[Richardjjj]

I agree. Welding should not be a special case and if you read what I wrote you'd see. All dangers in welding should be covered with acceptable, practical measures to enable us to do the job safely. Extraction for example. My point here which I've seen no reason to believe it's not valid is that there is no reason for people to be silly about thoriated tungstens and say oh you can't use them as they are radioactive. While reaching for the nitric acid to do some etching. You can use thoriated tungstens you just have to adopt some precautions and get on with it.[/QUOTE]

In my opinion it's not that simple. In a domestic environment you can pretty much do what you like, not so in a commercial setting, you can still do what you like as long as it is covered by a 'suitable and sufficient' risk assessment.
Problem is, its not what you or I may think is suitable and sufficient, its what a court thinks..
Two phrases crop up in safety legislation, 'reasonably practicable' and 'suitably qualified and experienced'
I agree 999 times out of a 1000 and probably more, no problem with using thoriated tungsten (my opinion), unfortunately, in a commercial setting if you have an issue you have nowhere to go. You can, pretty much, prepare a risk assessment to use any chemical or process as long as the RA is 'suitable and sufficient.' Talking about 'thoriated' tungsten, as far as I am aware, certainly from what I have read on this and other forums, its use is a personal preference. I have seen no articles that indicate that 'thoriated' must be used for a process.
Mrfuzzy rightly advised that if a hazzard can be removed it should be, its the first rule of RA's, Here's where the 'reasonably practicable' come in, is there any documented evidence you are aware of that requires the specific use of thoriated tungsten with documented evidence to substantiate that all alternatives are not suitable?, 'reasonably practicable' also allows for cost to be considered.
As a 'suitably qualified and experienced' person who has prepared the RA, you are in the frame, you could have removed the 'hazzard' and you haven't and ,unless you can demonstrate there is no alternative, you're cooked.
Why take the chance?

 

[Maker]

I'm sorry, but I don't see enough radioactive gunk in a tungsten to make anyone sick even if they don't wear propper breathing apps.

It only takes one single atom of thorium inside your body to give you cancer. It does have a very long half life (14 billion years) but as there is obviously thousands of billions of atoms in even just one speck of dust, you can be quite certain at least one will decay and get you. It does have to be inside you for this to happen though, as thorium is an alpha emitter and an alpha particle can only travel about an inch in air.

 

[Ami]

Ok, nice, that's reasuring.

 

[Maker]

Ok, nice, that's reasuring.

quite certain at least one will decay and get you

I could have worded this bit a little better, you can be certain at least one will decay but I don't know the probability of it causing you any problems, I think it's quite low.

 

[Ami]

That would be very sad obituary.
Death by grinding.

 

[daleyd]

That would be very sad obituary.
Death by grinding.

Quite a common one in the old days....
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...page&q=grinding wheel history dangers&f=false

 

[Maker]

Just wear a mask while you're grinding and ignore me talking about the radiation, you be careful grinding and I'll sit in my nerdy little corner drawing decay chains on the walls.

 

[eSCHEn]

Quite a common one in the old days....
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AfTwwtx_vsEC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=grinding+wheel+history+dangers&source=bl&ots=B0n16LVqdT&sig=mlQd0t8z3isuvUTNs7rcrwBSwuA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBsQ6AEwADgKahUKEwjm_LD52I3HAhUEtRQKHW6wCzY#v=onepage&q=grinding wheel history dangers&f=false

My Dad (now in his eighties) has a clear inch of visible metal dust in the bottom of his lungs. You can see it on his xrays. Needless to say he never wore a mask when grinding in his entire life.

How he never had a problem from it I do not know.

 

[Richard.]

My Dad (now in his eighties) has a clear inch of visible metal dust in the bottom of his lungs. You can see it on his xrays. Needless to say he never wore a mask when grinding in his entire life.

How he never had a problem from it I do not know.

He's lucky.

 

[eSCHEn]

He's lucky.

Very mate.