In at the deep end ?

[southpoint]

Hi Folks,
So glad I found this website - great info and have been trawling through it for a couple of days now - Well - the reason for my post and of course my current level of misery LOL

I ma having to do a load of work on my 1996 Landy Disco - outer sills, a posts, b posts and loads more - all for the MOT. I started stripping it down and it became more apparent it was a 'project' and not a repair!

To cut to the chase: I stripped all the sill etc.. out on the near side and get it back to good steel - modified the Britpart sills to fit and also base replacements for the a b posts - dry fit - lovely - welder here we come

I have an entry level welder - WolfWeld 100 No Gas - and I am sure it is my problem here - If I weld a seam down the face of the sill, for example, great - looks OK - but I am unsure about the penetration, the reason for this is that my tests on a flat piece of 1.2mm produced a nice looking weld but there is very little to show underneath.

I thought maybe it's the poser - it have 4 settings - anything higher than 2 blows through BUT at level 2 it produces a nice looking weld with poor penetration - I have messed about with the wire speed and it does not seem to make much difference at the low end.
The unit is rated 50A -90A - according to the box? I am guessing this is way high for bodywork and even at the bottom end is just wrong and won't work out.

If my guess is right and this unit is simply not suitable for what I want - loads of panel patching + structural welding - if someone could recommend a unit for a real good price - budget is low at the mo - that would be awesome.

Please also bear in mind that I am a noobi welder

Maybe I just need more practice before getting into the bodywork?

Ohh another question - SORRY - I had a go earlier today at welding an underside plate - up side down - laying on my back - had real problems here - just could not get a good weld - ended up grinding it back off - any ideas?

Apologies for the big post.

Cheers,

Russ

 

[cumbriasteve]

No gas will not produce as nice a weld for a start, so you are doing ok if they look tidy, did you try a self destruct on your test piece to check the weld strength, even though it has not come through it may be stronger than you think.

I have the perfect answer to 'upside down' welding...I don't do it because I have no need and don't know how.

 

[keith19]

Your tests on the 1.2 mm suggest there's not enough heat getting in there, but check the strength of the weld first, as Steve says. On thin stuff like 1.2 mm the difference between good penetration and blowing through can be small. If the weld is three-quarters into the bottom sheet that should be good enough for bodywork. If the penetration isn't enough, either try going a little slower, at setting 2, or try to move it along faster at setting 3.

50 Amp minimum is pretty high for anything below 1.6 mm, so I reckon you must be doing pretty well with that gasless Wolf. Try technique changes first, as above, before you decide to change your welder.

If you do need a decent cheap welder most folks on here would probably say keep an eye on ebay for s/h Clarke models in your area. The Clarke TE models you will need gas for, the EN models run gasless, but can be converted to run with gas too. If you're lucky you may find something between 90 and 150 Amps that will run off a home socket like your Wolf.
Most of these will have a low output of 30 Amps, much nicer for body panels.

If you have heavier 2 - 4 mm structural stuff to weld as well go for a machine at the 150 Amp end of the scale. Must point out that you shouldn't be doing structural stuff until you are really good, and confident in your ability. Needs lots of practice on the various joints first, really best doing an evening class if you can.

Welding on your back is an art in itself, and one that nobody is very fond of. Try to get the vehicle as high as possible, so you are welding sideways more than upside-down, if you can.

Usual advice is to turn up the wire speed and power when welding upside-down, and make a series of short, sharp welds, rather than attempting a seam. If the metal is thin - 1.2 mm or under - space the tacks well apart to start with, so the weld area doesn't get too hot and drop out, then gradually fill in the gaps so you end up with something like a continuous weld, with the tacks overlapping each other.

This is a bit of a devil using gasless, as when the tacks get close together you need to give them a quick wire brush to move the slag before tacking them together.
Give it a try and let us know how you get on...

 

[southpoint]

Thanks guys,
Got a bit of work to do today + tomorrow but hope to get back on it Thursday - rain tomorrow.

Cheers - keep you posted.

 

[mrcheese]

I have just about finished the welding on my Disco. I did start a thread in the projects section called "DiscoShed", but I need to update it.

I have been using a Clarke 100EN and Argoshield. The welder was the right price. Free from my father in law

I did get some blow throughs even on the lowest setting. Torch position can be critical and this is something that is coming with practice.

I also thought that I had cut back to good metal, but corrosion made it thinner with tiny porous holes. And the act of grinding made it even thinner.

For upside down welding I used a short stitch technique. I did set light to an extension lead when doing this I had uncoiled the extension lead so it would not over heat. I pushed the excess under the truck. A bin liner blew out of the back of the truck. Blobs of hot weld set it on fire and wrecked the lead

 

[southpoint]

Well I finally got around to actually getting something done on this project - bloody work gets in the way LOL

After initially grinding everything right back down - the extent of the rust worm was far bigger than I first thought, not only the sill but both A and B post bases were completely shot through and needed sorting.

So plenty of work there - especially for a noob.

Got to grinding out all of the knackered parts, gave it a good coat of rust killer inside and got it plated up - new post bases on over the top of the new sill, learnt to plug weld LOL and got it all seam sealed up. Left a lip at the top of the new post bases so I can flush them in with some filler a bit later on.

Got it all cleaned up, degreased and ready for a bit of paint - decided to sort the rear wheel arch while I was at it as it was also beginning to rust.

Here is the job with the 1st coat of red oxide on it - not the prettiest welding in the world but I reckon I got a good bond between the existing and the new + the plastic trim will hide a lot LOL.

I reckon once I got some decent primer on the posts, flushed them in and get a couple of top coats on it she'll be good for another few years.

Thanks for all the advice so far - makes a massive difference when your not sure what your doing LOL

I reckon that side is coming along nicely now - haven't even started on the other side yet AND that looks worse

Great fun tho and learning as I go !!!!

Cheers All,

Russ

 

[mrcheese]

Looks good. Glad to see you are making progress.
Mine went for the MoT on Wednesday and it passed

 

[southpoint]

Hey mate congratulations - I think it's going to be a few weeks until I get mine back in.
Looked at the other side today - stripped it all down and it is real bad - inner sill shot as well including front chassis mount bracket

Going to be 10 times the job of the other side but thinking of getting some box section and replacing the whole inner /outer combo in one and re-welding in the chassis mounts.

Only problem being I don't think I have enough power in my welder but I reckon I'll get some scraps and check it out, have a practice and I may get the heat right for the heavier stuff

Not including both inner front sills totally shot - cut one out today, took 5 hours stripping down, tying up the cables etc..and still not finished it

Cracking on tomorrow.

 

[dannyp]

last tiem id di a pair of disco sills, i cut them out compelty and replaced them with box section, 100x60 iirc is a straight fit with a hammer

 

[Robotstar5]

Nice bit of work have you checked the rear seatbelt mountings? another favourite rustspot! (and mot fail)

 

[keith19]

Looking a nice job so far, mate.
What's the thickness of these chassis mounts you're worried about refitting?

 

[southpoint]

Hi Guys,
Only really got chance to look at this again earlier. Found out I can get the whole inner sill complete for about 40 quid with the outrigger mounts on already and just drop it in - no brainer really SO going to get one of those and an outer sill as half of the floor on that side is knackered anyway.

Looks like going to be rebuilding half the truck that side LOL.

Checked the rear seatbelt mounts - they look OK.

cheers for now.

 

[bluebobtail]

Hi good work on the disco.
I did a 1995 one last year. It was a lot worse than that.

But have you tried this place for replacement panels?
http://www.yrm-metal-solutions.co.uk/discovery-9-c.asp

 

[Ducati]

Nice work for a first try.

Could I make a few suggestions when doing this type of repair (corrosion) work, more so if you intend keeping it for a while.

1) If you find you have to remove a substantial section of body work / chassis, sit with a cuppa and weigh it up for a moment. There has been many a heartache when the final cut has been made and ping, a 2mm gap is suddenly a 10mm gap, the whole shooting match changes shape in three dimensions

In most cases a temporary angle iron jig bolted up or extra support / axle stands / clamps / props etc. will suffice before cutting.

2) Weigh up the area of corrosion, how did the moisture get in ? How can it get out ? Think about providing extra drain holes in enclosed areas / box sections at the lowest points. Something manufacturers didn't always get right

3) Think about applying and access for applying, rust protection (waxoil etc.) for enclosed sections, sometimes it's easier and neater to drill extra holes, apply the treatment then plug the holes (blind grommets) on such as sills etc. before doors are hung and trim replaced.

Not forgetting a good seam sealer unless your welds are 100% watertight

4) Tack your repair section in then offer up any panels / doors / wings that have been removed for the repair to check the fit.

More so with A, B and C panels.

If all's OK complete the welds.

It's not much fun after all the welds are complete wondering why a door won't shut, a wing won't fit etc. and trying to decide which is the best course of action to make them fit.

Cut it all out and start again

Or attacking here and there with a combination of grinder, lump hammer and copious filler