Help with first time Ali TIG please

[andyboy66]

Hi.

I'm hoping someone out there can give me some pointers on why I've experienced a disasterous first attempt at TIG on Alumiunium.

I’m a reasonably proficient steel MIG welder and have recently bought an AC/DC TIG machine with a view to using it for finer welds and for Aluminium.

I did a good bit of background reading and watching of “basics” videos before I fired up the torch and these were really useful to get me up and running from zero experience.

After a couple of evenings / days running beads, lap joints and fillets on various shapes and thicknesses of steel I am producing a reasonable weld (for a newbie) and am fairly confident I can get to achieve the cosmetic quality I aspire to by getting some hours behind the mask and improving my technique.

So I decided to dip my toe in the water with a bit of Ali – just to see if I could get a similar “newbie” result on that material.

To say my results were bad would be an understatement. I’m almost embarrassed to post some pictures of the results, however I could really do with some pointers and the advice on this site is really top rate.

I’ve tried various and numerous settings combinations but most are to no avail.

I would describe the problem predominately as in-ability to get a clean shiny weld pool started – all the video’s I’ve watched show a nice clean pool coming up after the arc starts, and then the welders move it down the plate and feed the rod. But I can’t seem to get this far – the weld pool doesn’t want to form.

I’ve posted some pictures below – so you can see how bad the results are.

These are a combination of every amperage, tungsten size, grind shape, pulse mode on and off, AC frequency , cleaning, etc setting in the book.

Set up is as follows:
• Machine: R-Tech 161 AC/DC
• Tungsten: White tip, I tried 1.6mm and 2.4mm. I tried ground to a point and ground to a shallow cone. Also tried red tips at 2.4mm.
• Filler rod: 5356 grade – 1.6mm diameter
• AC Frequency: 100Hz to 150 Hz. Tried other settings also.
• AC Balance: Set at 50% - but also tried lower and higher.
• Amps – tried everything from about 55 up to 130
• Materials being welded: 2mm Ali sheet , Grade 5251-H22. And tried 6086-T6 – 5mm thick – just to run a bead up the strip.

The last run of the day came the closest to actually looking like a weld. The material seemed to melt and I shoved in what felt like a long length of filler to the pool at a very shallow angle which resulted at least in some joining of the two materials. But as you can see from the quality – it’s not a weld.

As I said at the top – I’m not getting anything like this on steel in DC mode – in this mode I can sense the kit is welding properly and the wld quality is as good as I'd expect for a beginner.

Any observations, suggestions, tips to try would very much be appreciated. A set of base settings to have a go with would be very helpful indeed.

Sorry for the long post!

Top left = Attempt at weld pool, no filler – grey appearance and black pitted marks on surface. Weld pool would not form.
Middle left = Various runs on the sheet – many combinations of settings – same poor result and no weld pool formed. Plenty of melting reverse side on higher amps.
Middle Right = Lap joint and best run of the day - 55 amps, 2.4 white tungsten balled, 1.6mm filler, AC Freq = 150Hz, AC Balance = 50% – very fast adding of the rod.
Bottom: 5mm 6086-T6 - similar results

 

[Shox Dr]

What gas are you using

 

[Hitch]

Looks like a gas issue, what size ceramics are you using, and what is your gas flow set at?

 

[julieanncharters]

Hi.

I'm hoping someone out there can give me some pointers on why I've experienced a disasterous first attempt at TIG on Alumiunium.

I’m a reasonably proficient steel MIG welder and have recently bought an AC/DC TIG machine with a view to using it for finer welds and for Aluminium.

I did a good bit of background reading and watching of “basics” videos before I fired up the torch and these were really useful to get me up and running from zero experience.

After a couple of evenings / days running beads, lap joints and fillets on various shapes and thicknesses of steel I am producing a reasonable weld (for a newbie) and am fairly confident I can get to achieve the cosmetic quality I aspire to by getting some hours behind the mask and improving my technique.

So I decided to dip my toe in the water with a bit of Ali – just to see if I could get a similar “newbie” result on that material.

To say my results were bad would be an understatement. I’m almost embarrassed to post some pictures of the results, however I could really do with some pointers and the advice on this site is really top rate.

I’ve tried various and numerous settings combinations but most are to no avail.

I would describe the problem predominately as in-ability to get a clean shiny weld pool started – all the video’s I’ve watched show a nice clean pool coming up after the arc starts, and then the welders move it down the plate and feed the rod. But I can’t seem to get this far – the weld pool doesn’t want to form.

I’ve posted some pictures below – so you can see how bad the results are.

These are a combination of every amperage, tungsten size, grind shape, pulse mode on and off, AC frequency , cleaning, etc setting in the book.

Set up is as follows:
• Machine: R-Tech 161 AC/DC
• Tungsten: White tip, I tried 1.6mm and 2.4mm. I tried ground to a point and ground to a shallow cone. Also tried red tips at 2.4mm.
• Filler rod: 5356 grade – 1.6mm diameter
• AC Frequency: 100Hz to 150 Hz. Tried other settings also.
• AC Balance: Set at 50% - but also tried lower and higher.
• Amps – tried everything from about 55 up to 130
• Materials being welded: 2mm Ali sheet , Grade 5251-H22. And tried 6086-T6 – 5mm thick – just to run a bead up the strip.

The last run of the day came the closest to actually looking like a weld. The material seemed to melt and I shoved in what felt like a long length of filler to the pool at a very shallow angle which resulted at least in some joining of the two materials. But as you can see from the quality – it’s not a weld.

As I said at the top – I’m not getting anything like this on steel in DC mode – in this mode I can sense the kit is welding properly and the wld quality is as good as I'd expect for a beginner.

Any observations, suggestions, tips to try would very much be appreciated. A set of base settings to have a go with would be very helpful indeed.

Sorry for the long post!

Top left = Attempt at weld pool, no filler – grey appearance and black pitted marks on surface. Weld pool would not form.
Middle left = Various runs on the sheet – many combinations of settings – same poor result and no weld pool formed. Plenty of melting reverse side on higher amps.
Middle Right = Lap joint and best run of the day - 55 amps, 2.4 white tungsten balled, 1.6mm filler, AC Freq = 150Hz, AC Balance = 50% – very fast adding of the rod.
Bottom: 5mm 6086-T6 - similar results

i'd get yerself some larger filler rods as a start 2.4mm as otherwise you'll need a turbo feed hand
looks like yer a bit shy on the amps for the thicker stuff .
take it the machine is 160amp max which is possibly why yer not getting the puddle on the 5mm plate..
give yer ali a quick clean it looks really dirty or is it just the photo.
stick with ya white tips i use 3.2mm tungstens on 5mm but thats just me.
you might find it easier to practice on say 3mm thick plate with a 2.4 tungsten to begin with ,its a bit more forgiving
you don't seem to be getting the cleaning action whats yer Argon gas flow and torch cup size out of intrest.
from photo looks like a pile of contamination or possibly wrong polarity/ faulty machine.
sure someone will put you right in a bit.

 

[andyboy66]

Hi.
I'm using pure Argon from an Albee cylinder. Flow rate 10-12.

 

[andyboy66]

Looks like a gas issue, what size ceramics are you using, and what is your gas flow set at?

I tried 5, 6 and 7 ceramics. Gas flow is set using the dial on an Albee cylinder at "10" - not sure how accurate that is.

I have a small glass flow gauge that I can stick over the end of the ceramic to check it properly. I've read it shoudl be between 10 and 12 litres per minute - does that sound right?

 

[hotrodder]

If it's definately a pure argon cylinder then can you post a pic of some mild steel (or better yet stainless) welds as it looks the wrong gas, no gas or a giant gas leak that's drawing air in. Pics of a used tungsten would also be useful in eliminating things.

Is the torch DEFINATELY correctly assembled (there's pics in the TIG tutorial and/or FAQ) ? Been here before at least once and after several pages it turned out that the collet was in backwards and yep, it caused a giant gas leak and a similar mess when trying to weld. Another one we've had before is an Rtech machine with a wiring fault... iirc it was stuck in AC or something due to an unconnected wire inside or the like. I can't decide if i can make out an etched zone surrounding the 'welds' or if it's soot. What's the machine sound like? DC TIG should be virtually silent, loadest noise being the machines fan. AC TIG obviously relatively noisy as AC current buzzes

10l/min is if anything a bit excessive but a slightly larger/smaller ceramic or small changes to gas flow won't cause or fix that mess. 6-7l/min is typically about the ballpark unless using giant gas lens ceramics or welding in a gale

 

[andyboy66]

i'd get yerself some larger filler rods as a start 2.4mm as otherwise you'll need a turbo feed hand

Good idea - I've read somewhere using a larger rod will help, especially for a novice. I'll get some on order.

looks like yer a bit shy on the amps for the thicker stuff .
I upped the amps when I tried the weld on the 5mm plate and I fdid get the material to melt - but not in a nice clean weld pool. The main use will be the 2mm sheet.


take it the machine is 160amp max which is possibly why yer not getting the puddle on the 5mm plate..


give yer ali a quick clean it looks really dirty or is it just the photo.
I didn't clean before starting on most runs. Material is quite dull compared to the new sheet. What's the best way to clean pre-weld?



stick with ya white tips i use 3.2mm tungstens on 5mm but thats just me.
you might find it easier to practice on say 3mm thick plate with a 2.4 tungsten to begin with ,its a bit more forgiving

you don't seem to be getting the cleaning action whats yer Argon gas flow and torch cup size out of intrest.
gas flow 10 - but not measured accurately. Cups - I tried 5,6,7 on combination of 1.6 and 2.4 tungstens.

from photo looks like a pile of contamination or possibly wrong polarity/ faulty machine.
Yep, looks dirty with visible small black pit marks on part of the surface and grey colour to base metal with white powdery looking residue post weld. But don't understand what would be casuing that. Polarity - I have the torch on the negative output and clamp (work) on positive - I beleive that is correct.

sure someone will put you right in a bit.

Hope so, thanks for the reply

 

[andyboy66]

If it's definately a pure argon cylinder then can you post a pic of some mild steel (or better yet stainless) welds as it looks the wrong gas, no gas or a giant gas leak that's drawing air in. Pics of a used tungsten would also be useful in eliminating things.

Is the torch DEFINATELY correctly assembled (there's pics in the TIG tutorial and/or FAQ) ? Been here before at least once and after several pages it turned out that the collet was in backwards and yep, it caused a giant gas leak and a similar mess when trying to weld. Another one we've had before is an Rtech machine with a wiring fault... iirc it was stuck in AC or something due to an unconnected wire inside or the like. I can't decide if i can make out an etched zone surrounding the 'welds' or if it's soot. What's the machine sound like? DC TIG should be virtually silent, loadest noise being the machines fan. AC TIG obviously relatively noisy as AC current buzzes

10l/min is if anything a bit excessive but a slightly larger/smaller ceramic or small changes to gas flow won't cause or fix that mess. 6-7l/min is typically about the ballpark unless using giant gas lens ceramics or welding in a gale

I'll get some pic's of steel and some used Tungstens's posted.
I beleive the torch was assembled OK, I'll double check it and all gas connections to make sure there's nothing obvious.

I think I'll also send some of these photo's to the R-Tech guys - see what they say, they're quite helpful. In DC mode it is as you say almost silent - the fan is the predominant sound. In AC mode it buzzes and the pich of the buzz increases with AC frequency as one would expect.

 

[inchpincher]

Looks to me like you haven't cleaned the Ali enough, in one pic you've welded over marker pen which I guess had been there a while. I surface prep with a zirconium roloc disc or equivalent, then once I'm ready to weld (machine settings done, helmet etc) I'll then wire brush with a dedicated stainless brush and get cracking ASAP. The hf on my 160 amp murex will struggle to get a pool unless there is very little oxide resistance.

Sounds like you have 99% of your research done, it'll all come good soon

 

[andyboy66]

Thanks for evetyone that's replied to this.

I think I may have found the problem, and if I'm right it is incredibly simple.

I use Albee gas cylinders - I took some photo's of my bottles this morning. I looked at the bottle I have on my MIG welder and the top of the bottle is green and clearly says "Weld ArMix" then on the small print label "Argon CO2 mix".

I've then gone over to my TIG welder - and amazingly the same colour bottle top and same "WeldArMix" label. Unfortunatley I can't make out the small print label on this bottle but I'm pretty sure this is NOT a bottle of pure argon - which is what I asked for when I purchased.

I didnt even think to check the dealer had sold me the right gas, just threw the cylinder up and assumed it was right.

I'll double check the small print label tonight when I'm back in the workshop and if I'm right then the bottle is going back.

I'll post to let you know the outcome.

 

[julieanncharters]

first prize to hitch it is then.

 

[Shox Dr]

first prize to hitch it is then.

Cough

 

[julieanncharters]

Cough

i stand corrected sir

 

[Shox Dr]

Dr. Please I haven't been Knighted yet

 

[gavuk]

You've been DOCTORED ?.......

 

[andyboy66]

Problem solved

So, reading the small print on the bottle confirmed the dealer had in-advertently sold me Argon/Co2 mix rather that pure Argon. His invoice said Argon, so genuine mistake.

Took the bottle back and explained the issue, he swapped it over no quibbles and appologised for the oversight. Good chap.

Got home, plugged in the new bottle, cleaned up some of the old bits of Ali I'd had no sucess on. Adjusted flow rate using a flow meter at the torch head. New 1.6mm Tungsten, no grind, 60 Amps, no pulse, 100Hz AC frequency, 50% clean, a bit of up slope and down slope, and decent post flow. OK, here we go. . . .

Hit the pedal - gorgeous clean arc, no wandering, after a second or a clear puddle of mercury-shiny weld pool comes up - dabbed the filler, moved along, dabbed, moved, dabbed moved. Off the pedal and held the torch over the weld during post flow.

At last - a weld!

So for me a lesson learned - check the bottle label small print - don't assume the supplier has given me what I asked for - and a mistake I won't make again.

Also, the simplest explanation for why something is / isn't happening is usually the right one - in hind sight this is a clear case of not being able to see any wood because of all the trees in the way.

Thanks again to everyone that made me look at it with a fresh pair of eyes.

On Albee cyclinders - I'd say it's an easy mistake to make. Pictures below of the Argon and Argon mix cyclinders - and a close up of the labels. Why don't they paint the bloody things different colours or something. And the shot of my first clean weld next to the crappy ones I made with the first gas.

Really looking forwards to getting some mask time now and learning the technique.

 

[hotrodder]

On Albee cyclinders - I'd say it's an easy mistake to make. Pictures below of the Argon and Argon mix cyclinders - and a close up of the labels. Why don't they paint the bloody things different colours or something. And the shot of my first clean weld next to the crappy ones I made with the first gas.

They are different colours- one's dark green and the other is bright green That genius decision is down to the new EN standards where the main purpose of the colour is to identify hazard properties. Granted they could still paint the main body of the cylinder different colours as they do with the larger/rental cylinders... http://www.airliquide-iupcgases.co.uk/pdf/4621CylinderIdentificationChart.pdf

Very nearly came a cropper with this very thing myself today... needed to swap out argon and get a few other bits, bloke that served me tried to give me argoshield and was struggling with other things like giving me regular steel brushes (black handle) instead of the stainless ones i asked for (orange). Turned out he was colour blind, or at least that the excuse he used

 

[langy]

Try a 2.4 tungsten you might like it