Ford 655C shuttle shift slow

[reb78]

Just a quick question. My Ford 655C has a shuttle shift for forward, neutral and reverse. It all works but it seems slow. I can change from neutral to forward and it will take maybe 4 seconds and a small jerk to engage drive. Same for reverse. I can deal with this and reduce the jerk as it engages significantly by shifting the shuttle lever with the clutch neutral button held (its on the gear and front bucket lever), hold the foot brake and then release the clutch button, let it gently engage and then lift off the footbrake.

Is this delay normal. My neighbours machines with similar are much newer but change quicker and with less of a jerk. It just strikes me its a little slow and jerky. Trans fluid levels are fine and I have changed the trans filter but no real change. I suspect a drain and refill is next but is there anything else to look at, especially while it is drained?

 

[sako243]

Asked my mate Ben who's got one and doesn't sound right. He's moving his machine about today so he'll report back.

 

[reb78]

Asked my mate Ben who's got one and doesn't sound right. He's moving his machine about today so he'll report back.

Ta - its like there is a momentary hesitation as you release the clutch and then it moves forward. If i am not on the brake it jumps forward a little as it starts to move (a bit like you had lifted the clutch a little too fast in a car). Being on the foot brake removes the slight jump and then you can let it proceed slowly. It just makes fine adjustment a little awkward - i.e. if you want to pick something up and stop a tiny bit too soon its hard to just creep it forward a few more inches.

 

[Smallfry]

With most autos this is normally a sign of low fluid. I remember they needed the red stuff, Dextron 2 ??? Universal oils were not recommended, but I have been out of plant for 25 years, and oils have come on a bit since then.

Blocked pickup filter ? Again, cannot remember if it has one. Condensation in the oil ?

 

[reb78]

With most autos this is normally a sign of low fluid. I remember they needed the red stuff, Dextron 2 ??? Universal oils were not recommended, but I have been out of plant for 25 years, and oils have come on a bit since then.

Blocked pickup filter ? Again, cannot remember if it has one. Condensation in the oil ?

Ed messaged me earlier and also suggested pickup filter. I need to locate where it is now!

I don't fully understand the setup.. it seems the shuttle shift controls forward and reverse valves - I think it's position directs flow through one or the other. It has a torque converter but also manual gears (I.e. I select F or R and then I choose 1,2,3 or 4 in each using the gear lever). The 'clutch' is electronic and igs a button on the gear lever or front loader lever which I think dumps pressure from the F or R valves and so holds it stationary - which I think is the same as selecting neutral on the shuttle shift. It's the same behaviour on the button 'clutch' as it is when selecting F or R

Level is fine now although it was low when I got it .

TBH, it doesn't appear to have been well maintained. Coolant system was probably more of a mud substance than water. Thats sorted now and I am gradually working my way through bits as it all works and isn't a rotten cab example so with some careful maintenance and tlc it should.hopefully be a reasonable yard machine for me.

 

[reb78]

Ed messaged me earlier and also suggested pickup filter. I need to locate where it is now!

I don't fully understand the setup.. it seems the shuttle shift controls forward and reverse valves - I think it's position directs flow through one or the other. It has a torque converter but also manual gears (I.e. I select F or R and then I choose 1,2,3 or 4 in each using the gear lever). The 'clutch' is electronic and igs a button on the gear lever or front loader lever which I think dumps pressure from the F or R valves and so holds it stationary - which I think is the same as selecting neutral on the shuttle shift. It's the same behaviour on the button 'clutch' as it is when selecting F or R

Level is fine now although it was low when I got it .

TBH, it doesn't appear to have been well maintained. Coolant system was probably more of a mud substance than water. Thats sorted now and I am gradually working my way through bits as it all works and isn't a rotten cab example so with some careful maintenance and tlc it should.hopefully be a reasonable yard machine for me.

Just to add - I am either using UTTO or SUTO (it's whatever it says in the book I think) in it but God knows what was in it when it arrived. I should probably drain and replace in any case.

 

[m_c]

Typically (My experience is JCB, so not sure how much Ford will differ..) the shuttle controls flow to two clutch packs.
One clutch for forward, and one for reverse. Any 'clutch' switch simply removes power from the shuttle solenoids.

If it's jerking excessively when selecting F or R (these setups usually jerk a bit), either the engine idle speed is a bit too high, or the torque converter is dragging more than it should.
The fact you mention you're using UTO, would have me questioning if that really is the correct oil. I've never known a torque converter to use any form of UTO, as they're usually either an ATF or hydraulic oil.
Also, are you checking the oil level under the correct conditions? Typically anything with a torque converter is checked with the engine running and in drive, however not all. Some JCBs are done with the engine stopped.

Failing that, you could be looking at an oil restriction (checking any pickup strainers would be a good start), however if the oil flow was restricted, I'd expect the engagement to be slower.
Or the clutch packs are worn, and it could just be taking a second or two for the packs to be pressurised to the point of engaging.

I did have a quick search for a workshop manual, but can't find any free downloads.
I did find this - https://www.plantkeyshop.co.uk/Ford-655C-Service-Workshop-Manual and for £7, I'd probably just buy it.

 

[reb78]

Typically (My experience is JCB, so not sure how much Ford will differ..) the shuttle controls flow to two clutch packs.
One clutch for forward, and one for reverse. Any 'clutch' switch simply removes power from the shuttle solenoids.

If it's jerking excessively when selecting F or R (these setups usually jerk a bit), either the engine idle speed is a bit too high, or the torque converter is dragging more than it should.
The fact you mention you're using UTO, would have me questioning if that really is the correct oil. I've never known a torque converter to use any form of UTO, as they're usually either an ATF or hydraulic oil.
Also, are you checking the oil level under the correct conditions? Typically anything with a torque converter is checked with the engine running and in drive, however not all. Some JCBs are done with the engine stopped.

Failing that, you could be looking at an oil restriction (checking any pickup strainers would be a good start), however if the oil flow was restricted, I'd expect the engagement to be slower.
Or the clutch packs are worn, and it could just be taking a second or two for the packs to be pressurised to the point of engaging.

I did have a quick search for a workshop manual, but can't find any free downloads.
I did find this - https://www.plantkeyshop.co.uk/Ford-655C-Service-Workshop-Manual and for £7, I'd probably just buy it.

Great info. Thanks. I will check all of this out ASAP.

The jerk is slight - and more significant if revs are higher so that matches what you say. It does have a delay (maybe 3-4 secs after either selecting F or R, or releasing the clutch button) and that probably makes it less predictable.than I would like.

So far oil level has been checked with the engine off so this may be an error .

I will see what my wsm says - it's been hard to find one that's definitely correct for the machine if I am honest. So may just download the one you link to for good measure!

 

[m_c]

The jerk sounds about normal, but the delay doesn't.
There's usually a slightly noticeable delay (I'd guess probably around a second), but 3-4 sounds excessive.

Having just had a search for lubricants, this link is interesting - https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/ford-655c-service-advice.79615/

with the following info from post #6-

Transmission. A Napa, Wix or Baldwin filter is what to look for. Baldwin is a BT5. Valvoline makes a transmission fluid that meets Ford specs.; VV813. Most others don't. Needs to "meet or exceed" Ford M2C134D spec. Most say recommended for or equivalent to and are actually a 20W hydraulic fluid. M2C134D (aka 134D) is closer to 40W. You can use the TSC Travelers Premium in the hydraulics, but not the transmission or center housing. Check out your manual. You drain the transmission via drain plug under the transmission. The drain plug in the converter is harder to get to.

A quick google suggests that various UTF (note Universal Tractor Fluid) meet the old M2C134D spec.
UTF is not UTO, as UTF is a hydraulic/transmission oil, however the current equivalent appears to be Ambra Multi G 134, which a search lists as being roughly a 10W30.

 

[sako243]

I'll ask Ben what the correct oil is. He's gone through all of this in the past and has managed by speaking to an oil company consolidate most of his machines down to a few oils meaning he has to keep less in stock.

I know my 2CX which sounds a similar setup (although no clutch pedal has various transmission dump switches which serve the same purpose) specs an ATF type G. It is a JCB Powershuttle box though. The ATF has subsequently been superceded by a 10W spec oil.

 

[reb78]

I'll ask Ben what the correct oil is. He's gone through all of this in the past and has managed by speaking to an oil company consolidate most of his machines down to a few oils meaning he has to keep less in stock.

I know my 2CX which sounds a similar setup (although no clutch pedal has various transmission dump switches which serve the same purpose) specs an ATF type G. It is a JCB Powershuttle box though. The ATF has subsequently been superceded by a 10W spec oil.

Sorry. This is me referring to a clutch and using the wrong terminology resulting in confusion. Mine is the same - dump switch (if that's what it's called!) - I just said clutch as I didn't understand what it's doing and it has the same effect.

 

[reb78]

The jerk sounds about normal, but the delay doesn't.
There's usually a slightly noticeable delay (I'd guess probably around a second), but 3-4 sounds excessive.

Having just had a search for lubricants, this link is interesting - https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/ford-655c-service-advice.79615/

with the following info from post #6-


A quick google suggests that various UTF (note Universal Tractor Fluid) meet the old M2C134D spec.
UTF is not UTO, as UTF is a hydraulic/transmission oil, however the current equivalent appears to be Ambra Multi G 134, which a search lists as being roughly a 10W30.

Thanks. There's all sorts out there so wasn't sure what to follow. I'll trawl the wsm I have. I was just going off of what my neighbour told me as he runs a much later new holland version.

 

[zzr1200]

Is there directional creep on a flat smooth surface, when it's in neutral with the hand brake off and both buckets off the ground, when the engine is rev'd?

Try this in Hi/Lo range.

 

[sako243]

From Ben

I ll check they will run happily on 10 engine oil I’ve run mine on all sorts over the years settled on
15 40 engine
10 transmission and hydraulic s
Utto in the back end
Ep 90 front axle and hubs
Might be 30 in the transmission actually I’ll check my chart at the yard

 

[reb78]

Maybe its all fine in terms of shift behaviour reading a bit more in depth there is a paragraph in the WSM that says:

'When the power reversing lever is moved to select forward travel the modulator unit signals the forward solenoid to move the control valve forward spool. The spook will move in proportion to the voltage rise of the signal to the solenoid which requires approx 1 - 2.5 seconds to engage fully, and the oil pressure to the clutch pack will rise by the same proportion until regulated pressure is achieved after 2.5 seconds.'

It just seems a bit less smooth and delayed than i would like to be easily controllable. I dont think its just my unfamiliarity with a machine of this sort.

Of course - i have a workshop manual... and in it they state that lubricant viscosity and type is in the operators manual... So thats not in my docs even though they state the capacities!!

 

[reb78]

Is there directional creep on a flat smooth surface, when it's in neutral with the hand brake off and both buckets off the ground, when the engine is rev'd?

Try this in Hi/Lo range.

No, nothing like that. (no low range on this one - it has 4x4 but no low/high range selection)

 

[zzr1200]

No, nothing like that. (no low range on this one - it has 4x4 but no low/high range selection)