Certificates and level 2 city & guilds for ARC stick : start up business

[northwest]

LMAO your right. Stop worrying and just go with it and sell but you get worried cuz you hear all stuff about being sued if anyone got hurt. So its natural for the "smart whip" to try and cover all angles but I get ya lol

You are safe as houses if you don't actually go ahead and sell any products, it is the fear and worry stops most, I have got by most of my life by asking forgiveness rather than permission!

 

[winchman]

@Brad93 I will have to set up Ltd. This is a frame that is techincal and will need CE marking. CE marking can be done in house and then you have to pay a lump sum for each item; (I know it is alot)
@ winchman; If I apply for design patent won't they do all the necessary checks incase someone else pops up like you say to claim the right to the design?

also brad, I might go on a £700 evening course level 2 welding arc; i reckon with that at least its shown I am comptenant on 'paper' to who ever TESTS my product.

Not as far as I am aware
I believe it costs a fortune so people don't bother but ideally you need professional advice on this. Some may view your product as a cash earner they can copy, some may not bother.
Have you made any? Sold any?
How can you prove demand

 

[Erie Fred]

You are safe as houses if you don't actually go ahead and sell any products, it is the fear and worry stops most, I have got by most of my life by asking forgiveness rather than permission!

Ah yes.....the old "Shoot first, apologize later" plan.....
Some of that in all of us from time to time.

 

[Misterg]

If I apply for design patent won't they do all the necessary checks incase someone else pops up like you say to claim the right to the design?

The application process is slow and expensive, but the real problem with patents is that they don't stop other people making 'The Thing' (indeed they must tell other people how to make 'The Thing').

If somebody else starts making 'The Thing' (or 'The Thing mk2') your only recourse is for YOU to take THEM to court and prove to the court that what they are selling is indeed covered by your patent. They, meanwhile will be trying to argue the opposite with the best experts that their money can buy until either somebody wins, or YOUR money runs out. If your pockets aren't deep enough to meet them in court on equal terms, then a patent is worthless. As a minimum, I think you'd be looking at hundreds of thousands of pounds to try and defend a patent, potentially millions - How much do you expect to make out of 'The Thing'?

The language of patents is a bit strange - it's a mixture of extremely precise and deliberately vague, so you (anyone) is likely to need a patent attorney to draft the patent in the first place, taking into account other, potentially overlapping existing patents in the wording. (The patent attorneys that I have dealt with have been startlingly intelligent, and they aren't cheap!)

Patents are also territorial - a UK patent is only effective in the UK, so you need to apply for patents in other countries that you might want to have protection in (all of which is extra cost). You may need to get them translated as part of the process.

As an individual, I think your best chance is to keep it a secret and try and sell as many as you can before anyone else catches on (but be careful it isn't covered by somebody else's patent!)

I've made four patent applications in my professional life, and had two granted. I'd really steer clear of them.

 

[500e]

A lot of paper Work

Same as ISO
Patents are a nightmare, the cost of defending is as @Misterg says not really feasible for small Co.
Had one it was copied by your favorite copiers not feasible for me to pursue, pocket not deep enough
..

 

[damunk]

The application process is slow and expensive, but the real problem with patents is that they don't stop other people making 'The Thing' (indeed they must tell other people how to make 'The Thing').

If somebody else starts making 'The Thing' (or 'The Thing mk2') your only recourse is for YOU to take THEM to court and prove to the court that what they are selling is indeed covered by your patent. They, meanwhile will be trying to argue the opposite with the best experts that their money can buy until either somebody wins, or YOUR money runs out. If your pockets aren't deep enough to meet them in court on equal terms, then a patent is worthless. As a minimum, I think you'd be looking at hundreds of thousands of pounds to try and defend a patent, potentially millions - How much do you expect to make out of 'The Thing'?

The language of patents is a bit strange - it's a mixture of extremely precise and deliberately vague, so you (anyone) is likely to need a patent attorney to draft the patent in the first place, taking into account other, potentially overlapping existing patents in the wording. (The patent attorneys that I have dealt with have been startlingly intelligent, and they aren't cheap!)

Patents are also territorial - a UK patent is only effective in the UK, so you need to apply for patents in other countries that you might want to have protection in (all of which is extra cost). You may need to get them translated as part of the process.

As an individual, I think your best chance is to keep it a secret and try and sell as many as you can before anyone else catches on (but be careful it isn't covered by somebody else's patent!)

I've made four patent applications in my professional life, and had two granted. I'd really steer clear of them.

I am not patenting it as it is not revolutionary.

I am merely getting a design patent which costs a few hundred quid just to protect the design so it cannot be copy catted 100%

so it can be copyied to an extent but aslong as its not bang on looking like mine , thats all i am bothered about.

 

[DAPPH]

Make them yourself to a good design /standard paint them then knock a few dings on them , now sell them as used no longer required on eBay . sold as seen ?????

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Just ask yourself...how easy would it be for someone (abroad say) to copy your design and sell them cheaper!

There's a whole world of people scanning eBay for new products/ideas that are selling well so they can get in on the act.

 

[DAPPH]

Just ask yourself...how easy would it be for someone (abroad say) to copy your design and sell them cheaper!

There's a whole world of people scanning eBay for new products/ideas that are selling well so they can get in on the act.

Plus there are zillions of Bots trawling the internet seeking pictures for low cost production countries then making and selling subsidized at less than you can buy the basic materials for as well as absorbing thousands of miles transport costs to get them to the paying punters .

 

[Misterg]

I am merely getting a design patent which costs a few hundred quid just to protect the design so it cannot be copy catted 100%

Do you mean a registered design? (I didn't think there was any such thing as a design patent in the UK, but could easily be wrong!)

 

[northwest]

Make them yourself to a good design /standard paint them then knock a few dings on them , now sell them as used no longer required on eBay . sold as seen ?????

Couple of years back now (Crikey fifteen!) I had worked out that "damaged repairables" were fetching more money than actual whole running roadworthy cars on ebay, so I bought a few oldish but good runners and smashed a headlight here a tail light there and started flogging them, made on average between four and five hundred quid more than I had paid each for them. Only one time did I have someone question me suggesting it wasn't really damaged at all?
People are nuts.

 

[northwest]

As an individual, I think your best chance is to keep it a secret and try and sell as many as you can before anyone else catches on (but be careful it isn't covered by somebody else's patent!)

If it really is that good, I would set to and make some really good examples to sell, I would also get some Chinese company to make some poor copies and sell them both in parallel. Then I would spend a little time making a fuss over the cheap Chinese copies "stealing" your design. This would eliminate competition at both ends of the market and create a "buzz" around your product with a load of free advertising for good measure.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

No, read the whole of his proposal, Europe was high on the list too and given the antics of some of our leaders here I wouldn't be surprised if we struggle for a trade deal here in the UK.

We struggled for a trade deal when we had a friendly relationship with the American government...

Ultimately we just don't have anything we're willing to offer that makes it worth their while.

LMAO your right. Stop worrying and just go with it and sell but you get worried cuz you hear all stuff about being sued if anyone got hurt. So its natural for the "smart whip" to try and cover all angles but I get ya lol

I wouldn't advise @damunk to deliberately ignore the Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008 if he's identified that he will be selling "Partly Completed Machinery".

The penalties are Harsh (2 years imprisonment, unlimited fine), and it's the HSE enforcing, so if it does go wrong enough to catch their attention, they will be out for blood.

Compliance for "Partly Completed" Machinery is significantly simpler because you don't UKCA/CE mark it or follow the full CE process, only complete the technical file and provide assembly instructions to the end user, there's a handy guide here

In my mind it if he wants to avoid the hassle of compliance with the 2008 regulations, it would be better to stay out of scope, and sell the lead screws, rails and frame as separate items that can be bought as a "component bundle" for the end user to create the machine.

I would assume most (if not all) customers who are buying a part-built CNC kit, are going to be just fine with doing some cap screws up in threaded holes, and going through the alignment procedure.

 

[damunk]

why are self build kits the way around?
so if something was to happen; it could be deemed the parts were not put together right?

still i think its bad if anyone gets hurt and this way around which i have seen alot doing is abit dodgy

 

[More Amps]

Self-build kits avoid any liability caused by assembly/welding defects as you're not doing them - they're the responsibility of the customer, and if the parts "were not put together right" it's their fault, not yours - as long as the assembly instructions are clear and not open to misinterpretation (a photo or two can help)
You would then only be liable if someone hurt themselves IF it could be shown and/or proved that your design was inherently unsafe - but that's why you take out insurance for public liability...
Nothing dodgy.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

still i think its bad if anyone gets hurt and this way around which i have seen alot doing is abit dodgy

It is absolutely bad if someone gets hurt, and I think your heart is 100% in the right place here.

However, I wouldn't call this way of thinking dodgy.

Regardless of whether you go down the route of supplying a kit or compiling a UKCA compliant technical file for a "partly completed machine", the point of the exercise is the same:

Playing within the rules we have set as a society to ensure you don't end up being held financially or legally responsible for the stupidity of others.



Considering the regulatory and legal aspects of a product, and tailoring what you offer to strike the correct balance for your market is every bit as much a part of doing modern engineering as mechanical/electrical design and manufacturing.

What I mean by correct balance is that generally:
• A school or large corporate business will pay a lot of money for a product where the seller takes on as much liability as possible,
• A less corporate business will want to pay less but take on what they view as reasonable liability in return,
• A small business or home user will prioritise cost over all else and take on most/all of the liability in return.

So who you want to sell to and what they will pay, will dictate what route you choose to go down.

It would not be "an equitable distribution of risk" (i.e. fair) for you to sell your product into the cheap end of the market, but also take on the financial risk of UKCA compliance and/or the legal risk of product liability.

why are self build kits the way around?

Because the regulator has to draw a line somewhere, so they picked a common sense point of "when it becomes a machine".

The way that the law is written is that it's the first person to put a machine/partly completed machine "on the market" (which includes using it commercially even if it's not sold, but excludes DIY builds for personal use) has the legal liability for ensuring it meets appropriate safety standards.

If an end user builds a machine from a kit of parts they take on that liability.

If you supply it partly built, you take on liability for the parts you built, and any specific advice you give on how to combine it with other parts to finish it.

so if something was to happen; it could be deemed the parts were not put together right?

Yes, but it wouldn't fall under the Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations.

If you supplied assembly instructions so negligent that following them would consequentially result in the user doing something dangerous, or building a dangerous assembly it:
• Might give rise to an offence under the 1974 Act (H&S at Work).
• Would most likely give cause for a civil claim for negligence under either common law, or product safety legislation.

You can easily disclaim this by:

0) Not advising that they do anything obviously dangerous,

1) Highlighting known or reasonably foreseeable risks, but making clear that this is not an exhaustive list of potential risks as you cannot anticipate all possible uses,

2) Giving clear advice to the end user that they need to consider the requirements of the 2008 regulations, and their obligations under PUWER 98 and the 1974 Act,

3) Absolutely not giving specific instructions or advice on how to install guarding or safety systems (other than those you explicitly supply with the kit), beyond a generic statement calling out the need to provide it like: "the end user of this kit should fully consider the need for guarding which suits their specific application, before first operation of any machinery they build"

If you do all that, then realistically you have done all you can do to warn the end user to take safety seriously, and if they still go and do something bloody stupid and get themselves (or someone else) maimed it's on them, morally as well as legally IMO.

 

[jo1010]

I have a good friend who is smart as a whip. Three years ago he came up with a product that we both agree would sell extremely well in the US. My suggestion was make a few and stick them on US ebay and see how it went. So then he contacted the US Embassy to enquire about import restrictions, no obstacle, then he contacted the UK department of trade (?) who told him, no restrictions. Then he contacted his insurers and then and so on a so on. Yesterday he called me up in a panic because Trump, when he gets his foot under the desk, is going to impose import tariffs and it might mean my pal may not sell many into the US. I pointed out that here we are three years later and as he hadn't actually sold any yet I struggled to see the problem!
You started this thread in January of this year it is now November, how many of these have you actually built and sold? Thought so.

.....and in the UK we are expecting some kind of Trump 'welcome' given that he seems to have a poor view of the EEC.....but quite how that will pan out given Starmer etc is a little uncertain