big step backwards

[christofloffer]

ok, so i have been playing with the welders for a while now. i just used the last of my bits of scrap to make a welding bench so that i can stand up instead of kneeling all the time. now that i have run out of materials for the other projects i decided to just practise.
i was told that a good way to practise was to get a plate and build it up with weld. so i cut a plate out of some old drawers to play with. its 1.5-2mm thick to start with, and i am doing MIG one side and MMA on the other. i started the first few runs with the last of a reel of SIP 0.8 gasless wire that i had left and was frankly rather disappointed. it was either going too fast and leaving a tall thin bead or when i slowed down it just blew holes through. i messed with the settings a bit and just got it to a thin but reasonable run before the wire ran out. the next lot is some Clarke 0.9 gasless and i cannot get the stuff to work, its a totally different ball game.
for one the slag is really really hard and properly black and takes a good smack with a hammer to chip off. the SIP stuff had a thin layer of chalky light brown slag that came off usually with a brush. even once i had thickened the plate up a bit it was still unruly and i could not get one complete run without either blowing holes, getting build up or having gaps in the run. i dont really understand it. i have done acceptable welds on many thing before with the 0.8 gasless stuff. i made the exhaust for my land rover with it and that pipe was really old and thin, i also made a tyre bead breaker with really thick stuff and got nicely lapped joints. so i dont really get what i am doing wrong.

the welder is a clarke 151en, i have tried it on every setting and various wire speeds. i can get the speed down to a nice consistent crackle without any lurches or burn back. the earth is close and clean and the plate was cleaned right back with a grinder before i started. it just seems like i have gone back to the level of my first ever welds.
i am still learning and i am doing this plate to practise technique rather than trying to join stuff. however there is no space for technique with this stuff because its too unpredictable. any advice or things to try? i would have taken photo's but there is so many runs it just looks confusing. i am going to grind them flat tomorrow and try again. i will get some photos then.

the ARC side is loads better, the only downside is the plate is a bit thin for the rods. but it still looks 10 times better than the mig side. at least the runs are consistent all the way.

 

[shenion]

Get some Lincoln Electric or SIF gasless wire (I prefer the Lincoln.) The cheap wire is near useless.

I had some Clarke wire and it was awful.

The best would be to go with gas. So much easier to see and control and no mess.

 

[BrokenBiker]

i have never had a bad reel of sip gasless, always gives me good results and a nice smooth weld

 

[christofloffer]

so its most likely to be the wire being bad quality then?
the last reel of the SIP stuff (i had a job lot of 5 a while ago) was a bit naff. it split a couple of times for no reason, once on the reel and about 6 turns away from the roller, and it would tend to bind on the spindle. other than that the rest were nice enough.
is 0.9 too big for most work? i have always had 0.8 before and it has been fine, and i like to be able to just pick up and go without changing reels.
also is super6 a decent brand? they seem to have good prices and i have some of there rods which are pretty good.

i will take a look at some better wire. i would love to go gas but i am not quite there yet. i need more practise and to get consistent before i can warrant the rental, and the rent free is no good as once i can use it i plan on using it a lot. i am really liking the arc welder at the moment, but the mig is a skill that i want to be really good at.

 

[BrokenBiker]

super6 is crap, avoid it at all costs. it might be priced well but that is for a reason.

the problem of it binding on the spindle is due to the wire not being wound properly.

as I say, ive never had a problem with 0.8mm sip gasless wire bought from halfrauds. I have never really noticed the difference between 0.8mm and 0.9mm wire and have used both successfully on car body work using a stitch technique

 

[God mode restorations]

hi ya....
if i was you iwould forget the gasless wire for the time being and go with getting a rented bottle....and some 3mm plate/scrap and practice...you will find it easier and help develope a steady flow with things....then go with the gasless...i think a lot to do with it is the quality of the wire...there are some crap brands about and some good ones...the good ones are just as expensive as a rented bottle...the gasless wire tends to burn hotter ..
just adding my one pence worth.....

 

[christofloffer]

ok, i ordered some 0.8 sif gasless wire. it came out as two rolls (0.45kg each) for £15, which is not too bad considering the two rolls of clarke guff that i bout were £13. it makes sense as i am never going to improve if the wire is awful quality. i will keep the other roll of clarke stuff for an emergency, it will get me out of a bind but i'm not buying any more of it.

good to know about super6, i dont feel so bad about burning through my stack of rods while practising now.

spencer, i wish i could forget the gasless stuff. i have been using it since i started and until recently i thought i was getting to the limit of its usefulness. its only in the last week that i finished putting up a welding bay in the garage so i can work inside. i do certainly plan on going with gas soon, but i need to be able to make nice welds first. once i can do strong neat welds with both mig and arc i have a book full of designs for things i can make and sell. once i have got to that point i can warrant investing in gas and taking my game up a bit. i am taking this lull as an opportunity to refine my methods, i can stick bits together but its not as neat as it could be. so i will carry on and get the torch angles, settings and positions nice and steady in my mind and then kick up a gear.

 

[ajlelectronics]

But the gas is the introduction to getting your confidence. Once you have that mastered, try the gasless, but I think you will prefer to stay with the consistency of gas. Like most things, if you want a quality result, get the best quality tools. Otherwise it's a bit like saying that you will do all your car repairs with a 5Lb lump hammer to get experience, before buying a socket set!

 

[God mode restorations]

i understand what your saying fella...i first started with the gasless..and i could never understand why my welds looked nothing like others did...i read books and looked on the internet for tips and help...then i bit the bullet and got my first bottle of gas ...many years ago now...and i was shocked with the difference..the learning curve became a lot easier...i have an inverter stick welder and found it a great help.i would stick weld one day..then mig the next day...but some of us aint in the position to go buy tools /gas.ect..and have to make do with what we have at that time...but it would make it better for you with gas....but stick with it...we all have good days and bad.....this site has helped me no end and i am still learning .....

 

[marlinspike]

We have a Clarke gasless mig and although they are great little machines, welding with gas is so much easier, smoother, and makes it far easier to practise.

You probably know that you can probably convert your Clarke to gas for about £40. Have a look at the BOC Volkszone deal - yes it is a big outlay compared to welding for free with gasless, but it is great value and the best option if you have a big project to tackle.

 

[christofloffer]

i have a regulator for mine already. i got a bottle of pure argon and aluminium wire for a project i had, wasnt bad but aluminium is unforgiving. i have only used a little of the bottle, so i have no idea how long it would last.

i have been looking at these offers on argon/co2 mix on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DISPOSABL...359?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a32b64c77

maybe that would be a good thing to get some practise in with gas? would they empty fast?
i know they are not that good but i am not ready to go rental yet. maybe once i have got a nice stock of metal back in and i can get a load of projects on the go it will be worthwhile. i would obviously need to get an adaptor to take it from tank to small pipe size but i dont mind that. i have checked it out and it would be cheaper in the long run, but i'm just not quite there yet. especially with my steel running out, as i am going to have to save up for more.

been out with it again today and its still horrid. i just about managed to get a decent width bead and something that looks like a hint of lapping, but at the cost of seriously slow travel which led to massive overheating. even then it was not something i could be happy with.
the worst bit, which reinforces the point about shoddy wire, is that the slag is consistently poor. its jet black and forms a thick and very hard layer at the start of the weld but a very dense and tar/glass like layer at the end. its almost impossible to remove too. i took the chipping hammer to it which didnt do anything, then took a lump hammer to it (i was hammering the plate flat again anyway) and that only just got the long bits off, then i took the wire wheel to it which just shined the slag up, then the sander which just about started to get in. the only thing that really clears the stuff is to cut it off with the grinder, and really dig into the edges to get it all. never again.

 

[Jan]

At the recommended rate of 10litres/min (assuming that you can regulate the flow rate) each of those little cylinders will give no more than 6 minutes of welding. Actually it will be less as some will be lost at the start of each weld. Also the %age of CO2 is a bit higher than we normally use in the UK. Don't forget that the BOC VolksZone deal can have a full 'Y' sized cylinder of Argoshield Lite charged to 230BAR 'in your hands' for little more than 2 lots of those little things giving you many hours of welding.

 

[christofloffer]

wow 6 mins?! forget that lot then. i'll wait until i have got the fresh load of metal and invest in a proper bottle of gas. i know it works out better and cheaper in the long run so i will go for that. they dont make small scale welding a cheap thing to do.

 

[Diywelder85]

I always used the parweld 0.8 gasless wire, never had a problem with that. They do the mini cylinders aswell, i think its air liquide or albee. They are about £150 and you own the bottle, then you pay a refil every time you use it up. Its like £40 per refill, i get through 3/4 a year.

 

[God mode restorations]

that's the same as what i got..payed 95 to open the acount..and 35 a refill..a better way of doing things...

 

[Bill Edwards]

But the Volkzone offer at I think £37 + VAT annual rental and £25 + VAT refills does take some beating. Especially when you consider that it's not just a 20l cylinder, but they actually fill it right up to 230 bar, unlike some others who only fill to 137 bar. They're expensive.

I wouldn't bother trying to get CO2 'pub' gas for less money, I think it's a waste of time and the proper Argon mix is well worth the money.

 

[christofloffer]

ok, been out again today. i figured i would try and join a load of small plates in various positions (butt, lap, T and corner) but didnt get very far.
i started out with the butt and found the new wire (sif 0.8 gasless) a bit different. better generally, proper slag now and loads easier to get the crackle. it was not too great, the sheet is 1.5mm mild steel and it either didnt penetrate or just blew holes. so i carried on and did the lap which was better.
i messed about with the settings and found higher settings and faster travel was better but still not great. after a couple of attempts the plates were distorted to hell so i gave up and went back to short practise runs to get my eye in again.
these are the results:

this was the plate from before with the mig side and the arc side:

its just trying to come up smooth topped, every time i try and get that lapped look it just blows holes. when it does lap the lip looks jagged and uneven. that mig side of the big plate looks pretty bad because there is almost an entire reel of wire laid on top of itself and lots of slag left that just wont chip off.
on that second picture you can see the back of the butt joint, its only penetrated in a couple of places.

this is really bugging me as i know i have done better before. i am getting all the right noises but none of the results. i know i should go onto gas and i fully intend to now, its gone onto the list straight after the fresh stock of steel. but any advice on what i am doing wrong with this stuff would be greatly appreciated.

(ignore the thumbnails. they are the arc side of the big plate and a bit of old stuff that got mixed in when uploading.)

 

[christofloffer]

ok, after using the whole first reel of gasless i have finally managed to get a few good welds from it. i think they are about as good as i will get from it. i still cant get the lapping right but the profile is loads better and i got a couple of decent joins form it. it still dances on the line between blowing holes and proper fusion but its better.
i have conceded that the fight is lost and have started making a list for the gas set up. i have requested prices from BOC as i want the big bottles of argoshield universal so i can cover everything. i am ordering a regulator, flow meter and adaptor pipe. i am also getting a steel liner for the welder as the current one is still the original and has suffered all my monkey learning at the start so is probably not so good these days.
i am also ordering a couple of fresh tips and shrouds as the current one is covered in spatter and cleaning it would be a pain. its not worth messing with it really.
now, i am going to stay with 0.8 wire as its covered 90% of what i have needed so far. i always used oversize tips (0.9-1.0 for 0.8 wire) with the gasless, do you need to match the tip size to the wire size (0.8 tip + 0.8 wire) when using gas?
anything else i need to consider with purchases to get set for using gas?
anything to avoid?

i still think gasless has its place but i am tired of trying to force the point. its driving me up the wall trying to get nice welds with it and i am aiming to do this for a living so its time to bite the bullet and do it properly.

 

[ajlelectronics]

You can adjust your nuts with a Monkey wrench, but the proper spanner just makes it a more pleasant and efficient experience.

 

[Bill Edwards]

Get the correct size tip for the wire you are using. Make sure the flowmeter is the 'pea shooter' type, the gauge sort aren't very good.
10 lpm is good for most things.
For the power your welder has I would suggest you get BOC Argoshield light. Two reasons for this - it's designed for thin stuff, which is what your welder is suitable for (up to around 5mm). It does work on thicker stuff, but it's the optimal blend for thin metal.
The second reason is that you can get a y sized (medium/waist height) bottle on what is known as the 'Volkzone' offer by ringing up the BOC head office sales department - do a search for the number if needed.
The price is excellent. It costs around £38 per year to rent the bottle and £25 per refill (plus VAT) and you'll find that a bottle will last a very long time. Also, unlike the rent free alternatives they fill the 20l bottle to 230 bar giving a huge amount more gas than others at 137 bar.

I think that once you've tried it with the proper gas, 0.8mm wire and the proper tip you're only regret will be not making the change sooner.