Argon cylinder pressure vs prices

[jweaver]

I currently use CO2 but i am buying a new welder and think it time to treat myself to some Argon.

I have been looking around for the best deal and have very few options in my local area.

After looking at the nationwide suppliers, i have noticed something and want to check whether i am understanding this correctly.

Hobbyweld and Adams offer Argon/CO2 mix, in a 10L, but its supplied at 137 bar which means tht for £30 you are getting 1370L of gas.

In contrast others are offering 200 or even 300 bar.. And whilst they are more expensive, it still works out cheaper per litre.

Is this right? Or am i overlooking something?

 

[hotrodder]

Rental? The 'hobby' places charge more for the gas but no rental, just a deposit on the cylinder i.e. it's not costing you money to sit in the garage unused. With BOC/Air Products you pay rental every month/year and a straightforward 'gas price' is tooooo simple so every time you exchange an empty there's a collection fee and environmental/energy surcharges (all +VAT of course). Rental is cheaper if you get through enough gas

You can get 200 bar rent free- Southwest Gas Supplies for one, dealers set their own prices so take any numbers mentioned on here with a pinch of salt. BOC are 230 bar and for MIG there's the 'Volkszone offer' which they did to win some light user business back from the smaller rent free guys. Size Y (about 20 litre) only, filled to their usual 230 bar @ 15C. Air Products have 'Albee' for the light user, a couple of sizes @ 200 bar

 

[jweaver]

Rental? The 'hobby' places charge more for the gas but no rental, just a deposit on the cylinder i.e. it's not costing you money to sit in the garage unused. With BOC/Air Products you pay rental every month/year and a straightforward 'gas price' is tooooo simple so every time you exchange an empty there's a collection fee and environmental/energy surcharges (all +VAT of course). Rental is cheaper if you get through enough gas

You can get 200 bar rent free- Southwest Gas Supplies for one, dealers set their own prices so take any numbers mentioned on here with a pinch of salt. BOC are 230 bar and for MIG there's the 'Volkszone offer' which they did to win some light user business back from the smaller rent free guys. Size Y (about 20 litre) only, filled to their usual 230 bar @ 15C. Air Products have 'Albee' for the light user, a couple of sizes @ 200 bar

Understood.. I think you might has misunderstood my question, and in truth, after doing a bit of research last night I think I answered my own question.

My point is that the likes of Southwestgas, and Adams, charge the same (roughly) for the bottle.. All you are paying for is Gas.

But Adams/Hobbyweld only fill to 137bar, so for £30 you get 1370 litres (of which lets say 1200 is usable) of gas, so costs 2.5p per litre, and therefore 40p per minute.

In contrast, my local Southwastgas, dealer charge £60 per fill.. But you get 200bar, or 2000L (I guess 1800 is usable).. So thats 3p per litre.

So even though you get a small fill, Adams/Hobbyweld are actually cheaper, even though the gas won't last as long per fill.

The likes of Air Products, are even cheaper.. £30 fill, for 300bar (3000l).. Works out at 1p a litre.. But their rental costs are expensive and prohibitive for a user like me...

I went back to my CO2 supplier today and found they do Argon.. Didn't fully understand their "rental" model, but it seems to cost £2 per month, which eats into the £50 deposit.. So the implication was that after 2 years, you would have no deposit.. But I need to find out what happens if you need a fill after? Do you need to pay the rental for the months/years you havn't paid?

If the most you get charged is the £50 deposit, I would go along with this, as I am never likely to want to cash my cylinder in.

Jon

 

[ben8vgte]

Adams trade size bottle is filled to 200bar and in a 20ltr cylinder, the bottle was a £80 deposit being bigger. It works out a little cheaper than the hobby sized ones from them for refills £ per M3 of gas.

 

[wyn]

Have you looked at the "gas price spread sheet" on this site, it has all that sort of info.

 

[hotrodder]

I went back to my CO2 supplier today and found they do Argon.. Didn't fully understand their "rental" model, but it seems to cost £2 per month, which eats into the £50 deposit.. So the implication was that after 2 years, you would have no deposit.. But I need to find out what happens if you need a fill after? Do you need to pay the rental for the months/years you havn't paid?

Without knowing who this local supplier is none of us stand much of a chance of understanding their pricing. I'm probably misunderstanding again as i'm only responding to what's written but shirley asking them to explain would have got you an answer? [/tongue firmly in cheek, good natured evil glint in eye]

Being a bit more serious (and obvious) i've stayed with BOC for eons not because they're the cheapest but because i've got a choice of two outlets within a 15 - 20 min drive one of which i drive past at least once a week regardless. Unless the hobbyweld option is literally on your doorstep the Southwest has gotta be cheaper in real terms once getting/replacing it is factored in (getting for double the # of journeys/carriage)?

 

[jweaver]

Without knowing who this local supplier is none of us stand much of a chance of understanding their pricing. I'm probably misunderstanding again as i'm only responding to what's written but shirley asking them to explain would have got you an answer? [/tongue firmly in cheek, good natured evil glint in eye]

Being a bit more serious (and obvious) i've stayed with BOC for eons not because they're the cheapest but because i've got a choice of two outlets within a 15 - 20 min drive one of which i drive past at least once a week regardless. Unless the hobbyweld option is literally on your doorstep the Southwest has gotta be cheaper in real terms once getting/replacing it is factored in (getting for double the # of journeys/carriage)?

Thanks all.. I know I wasn't clear, but I think I have worked it out.

Adams and Hobbyweld are both 137bar, so whilst they are cheap to fill, you don't get much for your money.

My old CO2 supplier did Argon, and charge £2 per month 'rent'.. They are cheap to fill, but the rent would eat into the deposit.. After 2 years, the deposit would be gone.. But I asked them how the rental worked after that, and apparantly, if I went back in 3 years to get a fill, I would owe them 1 years worth of rent.. And thats if they hadn't contacted me before then to pay up... So I would be paying £24 per year for that setup.

The last and best option for me is "SouthWestGas".. All of the agents I spoke too charge £36-£38+vat for a fill and because they are 200bar, its better value than Adams/Hobbyweld.

BUT.. My local agent wanted £70 for a fill... So in order to get the recommended price, I would have to travel around 50 miles to get it.

I was far from happy with this, so I contacted the agent and explained that all of the other 'locals' were charging between £36-£38 for a fill, and whilst they couldn't match, they offered to do it for £40.

So for an extra few quid its worth not having to travel the distances.. I understand that SWG only set recommended prices, I don't think its right that a dealer can set their own top price.. 80% more than the norm is not acceptable, and is frankly unfair if you happen to live close to one.

Anyway, I am sorted now.. Bottle for £55.. Gas for £40.. 200bar.. That should last me for a long while...

Cheers all..

Jon

Edit: I just got an Email from SWG.. Turns out that my local agent had made a mistake in their system and were adding their standard retail markup.. So if I had a trade account, they would charge less than £40.. But because i was retail, they were adding an extra.

They failed to see that as a 'consumable', this shouldn't really have such an agressive markup, so are now willing to do the gas for a 'trade' price of £38+vat.

So if anyone is interested, Motorcar in Caldicot and Abergavenny, Wales have joined the ranks of the other agents selling SWG Argon for a reasonable price.

Jon

 

[hotrodder]

I understand that SWG only set recommended prices, I don't think its right that a dealer can set their own top price.. 80% more than the norm is not acceptable, and is frankly unfair if you happen to live close to one.

Yeah, It's annoying and backwards to the usual way of highish suggested retail prices and everyone discounting from that, especially when SWG have posted prices on the forum which were less than the half the ££ my local agent wanted. More so when i found out the the dealer i found through the SWG website denied being a dealer and then decided they could it get in to order. Based on the numbers being punted around the forum at the time i was expecting to end up ditching BOC for O2 and my emergancy/portable Ar.

Edit: I just got an Email from SWG.. Turns out that my local agent had made a mistake in their system and were adding their standard retail markup.. So if I had a trade account, they would charge less than £40.. But because i was retail, they were adding an extra.

Did they mention a cashback offer in their email? I've got a vague recollection that if you email/post a copy of your invoice to them you get a £20 forum discount or something? I think their username here is Agaautosport?


ETA, yep... http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=424682&postcount=12

 

[langy]

Understood.. I think you might has misunderstood my question, and in truth, after doing a bit of research last night I think I answered my own question.

My point is that the likes of Southwestgas, and Adams, charge the same (roughly) for the bottle.. All you are paying for is Gas.

But Adams/Hobbyweld only fill to 137bar, so for £30 you get 1370 litres (of which lets say 1200 is usable) of gas, so costs 2.5p per litre, and therefore 40p per minute.

In contrast, my local Southwastgas, dealer charge £60 per fill.. But you get 200bar, or 2000L (I guess 1800 is usable).. So thats 3p per litre.

So even though you get a small fill, Adams/Hobbyweld are actually cheaper, even though the gas won't last as long per fill.

The likes of Air Products, are even cheaper.. £30 fill, for 300bar (3000l).. Works out at 1p a litre.. But their rental costs are expensive and prohibitive for a user like me...

I went back to my CO2 supplier today and found they do Argon.. Didn't fully understand their "rental" model, but it seems to cost £2 per month, which eats into the £50 deposit.. So the implication was that after 2 years, you would have no deposit.. But I need to find out what happens if you need a fill after? Do you need to pay the rental for the months/years you havn't paid?

If the most you get charged is the £50 deposit, I would go along with this, as I am never likely to want to cash my cylinder in.

Jon

I take it you know its not just argon ???

 

[jweaver]

Yeah, It's annoying and backwards to the usual way of highish suggested retail prices and everyone discounting from that, especially when SWG have posted prices on the forum which were less than the half the ££ my local agent wanted. More so when i found out the the dealer i found through the SWG website denied being a dealer and then decided they could it get in to order. Based on the numbers being punted around the forum at the time i was expecting to end up ditching BOC for O2 and my emergancy/portable Ar.




Did they mention a cashback offer in their email? I've got a vague recollection that if you email/post a copy of your invoice to them you get a £20 forum discount or something? I think their username here is Agaautosport?


ETA, yep... http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=424682&postcount=12

I read about the offer.. And I mentioned it to them.. But they never said anything.. Don't you have to go direct to them to get it?

 

[jweaver]

I take it you know its not just argon ???

Yep... Argon/co2/oxygen mix.. I referred to it as Agron as I couldn't be bothered to type the extra words..

 

[hotrodder]

I read about the offer.. And I mentioned it to them.. But they never said anything.. Don't you have to go direct to them to get it?

Dunno, the monkeys at my local Jayar put me off the whole thing. The post i linked to says forum offer and he's talking about Scottish agents at the same time so i'm guessing not direct sales. If you do a search for 'cashback' filtering it for posts by Agautosport you should find the origional terms- probably something like a PM to Alan as proof you're a member and a copy of your invoice?

 

[mk1mr2]

Yeah it's directly between you and him, nothing to do with the distributors... Pm him and post him a copy of the invoice. He posts a cheque back. Worked for me last year.

 

[Agautosport]

To clarify,
A few of the motor factors we deal with ( now over 250 ) use a computerised "cost plus " system where they asign a product code to the item and the system calculates retail and trade prices . I have aranged for our products to be sold at the trade price at most but a few stick to the old trade discount system as used in the motor trade for years . We can not tell these companies how to run their businesses , we can only advise .

Hope that helps .

Alan

(ps new benefits for forum members coming soon , keep reading )