1991 gsxr frame welding, which wire?

[jim painter]

Hi, i need to weld some brackets onto my 91 gsxr, does anyone know which ali wire i need to use to mig it?
Im guessing i will also have to preheat the bits being welded?

Thanks

 

[Tinbasherdan]

4043 is the general go to wire for tig, which is what id be doing if I was you. Shouldn't require preheating, the frame sections aren't actually all that thick

 

[Richard.]

I wouldn't Mig it.
It's a tig job all the way
Consumable as above. 4043.

 

[Chris Stevens]

If Mig is all you have get some 5356 wire, argon gas, teflon wire liner, and give it a go. But maybe it would be less hassle to get everything prepared and get the bike to someone who can TIG it for you?

 

[BrokenBiker]

i had some custom brackets put on my cbr400 frame and got a mate to tig it with 4043...they were solid and when i ploughed into a stopped car the brackets got really badly bent, but the welds still held fine.

4043 all the way if i were doing it, mig will work but tig will be far better IMO. if mig is all you go though i say go for it.

what are the brackets for? frame sections look thick but they are usually quite thin relatively speaking, they get their strength from their shape rather than thickness of the material.

 

[jim painter]

The brackets are for the seats to bolt to/ hook under.

 

[Chris Stevens]

Get brackets TIG welded with 5356 rod................they will be fine. Using 5% rod means the weld wont be as strong as 5356, and thats not a good idea if you are joining thin to thick.

 

[Tinbasherdan]

Get brackets TIG welded with 5356 rod................they will be fine. Using 5% rod means the weld wont be as strong as 5356, and thats not a good idea if you are joining thin to thick.

Not knowing the alloy Suzuki use in the frames, I would go 4043 all day long, as would most tig welders. They are seat securing mounts so not a high impact area, the subframe supports the body of the seat, these tabs will just stop it sliding around

 

[Richard.]

Strength isn't the governing factor here and pulling a filler out of the sky saying "because it's stronger" isn't the best advice.
I've heard in the past the earlier Suzuki frames are a 6*** grade but I'm Not sure. Both 4043 and 5356 are able to happily weld this material but what if it's not? What if Alsi? A mag based filler isn't suitable for silicon alloyed aluminium. You also need to be aware that 4043 is less sensitive to cracking which is essential if welding on the unknown.
Your weld metal 5356 may be stronger yes that is true BUT!! that does not mean the joint is. Remember Chris with all welded joints you get dilution.

 

[Chris Stevens]

I have repaired a fair number of modern extruded perimeter frames, and used 5356 on all of them, which is what was suggested to me by someone who used to work at Spondon. Not had a single problem with any of them, including trials and MX frames, which get used harder than road stuff/

Thinking behind using 5356 is that filler material is stronger than 5%, and a filler very close to that will have been used to make frame in the first place. Would think pretty much all the mass produced extruded frames use 6000 series material, and doesnt seem that a great idea to compromise the durability of any repair or modification work by using 5% filler?

Using 5% though does make the actual welding easier, with less need for proper prep and will still work reasonably well on less than perfectly clean material, so when strength of weld isnt a concern, its probably preferable to 5356.

 

[Tinbasherdan]

I have repaired a fair number of modern extruded perimeter frames, and used 5356 on all of them, which is what was suggested to me by someone who used to work at Spondon. Not had a single problem with any of them, including trials and MX frames, which get used harder than road stuff/

Thinking behind using 5356 is that filler material is stronger than 5%, and a filler very close to that will have been used to make frame in the first place. Would think pretty much all the mass produced extruded frames use 6000 series material, and doesnt seem that a great idea to compromise the durability of any repair or modification work by using 5% filler?

Using 5% though does make the actual welding easier, with less need for proper prep and will still work reasonably well on less than perfectly clean material, so when strength of weld isnt a concern, its probably preferable to 5356.

The point remains though that it's not structural, and if it was I wouldn't just be guessing that it might do with 5356, I'd be doing some research into it big style

 

[Chris Stevens]

The point remains though that it's not structural, and if it was I wouldn't just be guessing that it might do with 5356, I'd be doing some research into it big style

Thats the exact reason I spoke to Spondon before doing any welding work on frames. Long time ago, but seem to remember also had a word with Tigcraft who advised same as Spondon.

 

[Richard.]

Thats the exact reason I spoke to Spondon before doing any welding work on frames. Long time ago, but seem to remember also had a word with Tigcraft who advised same as Spondon.

Serious question. Not trying to catch you out just wondered if you knew what material the Suzuki frames were? The early ones were prone to welds cracking iirc.

 

[Chris Stevens]

6000 series I would imagine, but I am happy to use filler material suggested by Spondon, as they have far more knowledge about frames than me................cracking often came about due to numpty wheelies, which often involved slamming on the back brake, and front end impacting the road very hard.

 

[BrokenBiker]

6000 series I would imagine, but I am happy to use filler material suggested by Spondon, as they have far more knowledge about frames than me................cracking often came about due to numpty wheelies, which often involved slamming on the back brake, and front end impacting the road very hard.

you arent doing it right if you are slamming the rear anchors on to bring the front down...

again, i am only working on assumption here but i would assume that suzuki and honda use similar materials for their frames, my cbr400 had lugs welded onto the frame for me to put crash bungs on as the previous owner had made some dire attempt at making a streetfighter and left me with no option for the usual places...

when i binned it the left hand crash bung was bent in nearly 90 degrees and the weld was fine after being done with 4043...i also had a repair done to my cbr600 from the same guy and that stood up to a huge amount of 'abuse' from me and the occasional wheelie (but i do mine properly) and the repair never cracked.

the guy i use for ali repairs welds for a small motorsports company so i trust his judgement

 

[Chris Stevens]

If you want the best possible job and dont know exactly how to do yourself, its always best to see if you can get any info or help from experts in that particular area. A few years ago I needed to produce a piston to reduce rattling on a 2T motor, which has little support for the piston on the thrust face. So rather than guessing what to do, I talked to my piston manufacturer, who suggested an alteration which worked perfectly. This is the reason I spoke to Spondon about filler materials for extruded frames. On the other hand when I modified some Gas Gas cast swinging arms, the filler suggested by Gas Gas factory tech dept was 4043.

 

[jim painter]

Thanks for all your reply's. Didnt want to cause any arguments, but I appreciate all the helpful information.

Thanks

 

[hotrodder]

Dunno what flavours of Al Suzuki favour but some (many?) motorbike manufacturers use 7xxx wherever possible... KTM for example mention that their subframes are 7020 (aka 7005) aluminium in various tech specs and several, proprietary by the looks of things, 7xxx based alloys are mentioned in this article specific to Honda ally frames that covers extrusions, die castings and gravity die castings http://210.101.116.115/fisita/pdf/G359.pdf

5356 is also a 5% filler, 5% Mg instead of the 5% Si in 4043 [/pedantic] Dunno what the factories use to weld frames together, not surprised Spondon use/recommend 5356 as their thing is/was 7020 aftermarket frames and components and 5356 is the most common of the several different 5xxx series wires suitable for welding 7xxx

Whichever flavour of wire is used, even if it's the wrong one, the HAZ should still be the weakest spot from a "strength" POV most of the time. While 5356 is stronger than 4043 more importantly it's also less brittle... 4043 is 'easier' to use from a solidification cracking POV etc but if we're talking fillet welds (less dilution) then a 5356 weld should take more vibration/flex/abuse before cracking everything else being equal. As said while MIG is really the wrong weapon for the job 5356 wire is a chunk stiffer than 4043 which can be a deal with MIG i.e. less prone to birdsnesting/feeding issues. Especially if we're talking a smallish DIY set and if we are that's another reason not to MIG it

http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/support/Alloy-Data-Sheets.cfm as well as the data sheets for different flavours of filler wire there's also a comprehensive filler selection chart that looks at things from various POV like ease of welding, strength, ductility, colour match, corrosion resistance etc. Don't get tunnel vision on which is the "strongest" in that filler wire chart, ductility is at least as important while strength is more of a design thing [/gross generalisation]