170Amp but not getting enough penetration?

[mich]

Hi Guys,

quick post to see whether the more experienced of you could cast a quick eye over these photos? I switched from welding with 0.8mm gasless wire to 0.8 normal wire with Argoshield light last night. For some reason I CANNOT get the kind of penetration that I was achiving before? I must be doing something wrong but I couldn't figure it out last night, so I figured I'd ask you guys.

I played with the wire flow speed and all other settings on the welder, but I'm not really getting any mayor penetration. The weld just seems to 'sit' on top of the material. It gets proper hot and glows red hot, but it just doesn't go into it enough. Is my welder not strong enough for 4mm steel angle? If I weld towards the edge of the material it will eventually blow a hole into it, indicating enough heat, but when I weld towards the middle of the piece it just 'sits' on top. Maybe I'm expecting too much???

Welder: 170Amps
Wire: 0.8
Gas: Argoshield Light
Metal Thickness: Mostly 4mm angle, and some 6mm plate Mild Steel
Amp Setting: Max! (6)

Regulator works fine, checked yesterday. Had the WHOLE thing apart!
Entire front part of torch has just been replaced with new parts (new shroud, nozzle, holder, spring, etc)

 

[R Kraft]

When you you use shielding gas, you must have the metal clean.
No rust, no mill scale.
Robert

 

[Wozzaaah]

Have you changed the machine polarity to suit the solid wire?

 

[mich]

Have you changed the machine polarity to suit the solid wire?

I don't think you can on mine, unless I start pulling it apart. That spool of wire that I am now using, came originally with the welder and was already part used. Not that that is a guarantee or anything. But should I be able to weld 4mm steel with a 170amp welder?

And in terms of cleanliness, does is actually make THAT much difference? It certainly never has for me in the past. Including when I have used other people's MIG welders to weld on less than clean metal. I really don't think it would have such a HUGE impact.

 

[Wozzaaah]

Yes and yes!
170A is plenty for 4mm steel and with mig it has to be clean.
Arc (stick) is way more forgiving, you can pretty much lay a bead on any old rubbish.
Looking at those pics you haven't cleaned any of the steel up so run some test welds on some of the same steel after you've run a grinder over it and I'll bet you'll get better results, not that they're too shabby as they are mind.

Sounds like your machine is supposed to be gas only which could be why you were getting such good penetration using gasless wire.

 

[mich]

Sounds like your machine is supposed to be gas only which could be why you were getting such good penetration using gasless wire.

Right, will run some more tests with cleaned metal. Can you also elaborate on your comment for me? TA! =)

 

[Wozzaaah]

Gasless wire runs DCEN (torch negative, 'earth' positive) and solid wire runs DCEP (torch positive, 'earth' negative).
Running gasless wire with the torch positive might lead to excessive penetration which you've been interpreting as 'good' welds which is why (though your welds look very good) you think they're sub-standard.
Other than a very slight amount of 'cold-lap' in the odd place which is caused by that millscale, those welds look very nice.
At 170A you're pretty much maxed out for 4mm anyway so having to run the machine at it's top setting sounds about right.
I'll also bet that you're not getting the full 170A out of it, you'll only get that in exceptional circumstances as it's dependent on several factors which an amateur welder will rarely get perfect.
Robert hit the nail on the head right at the outset, that millscale will have a detrimental effect on your ability to lay a good weld, get rid of it and I'll bet you'll see an instant improvement.

 

[spaffmonkey]

Another thing. When i was getting my argoshield they asked what thickness metal i would be using and i said probably 2mm upwords so they recommended
i got argoshield universal as the light was better for thinner stuff. just a thort.

 

[mich]

That Sir is a brilliant response and I can now understand what I am dealing with. I reckon I could probably resort to running a slower wire feed speed at full power, so that I can give the weld pool more time to 'stay' in one place and get some heat into the metal. That seems to have made it a little better yesterday. But thank you ever so much anyways for the info. At least I know now that my welder isn't defective. =)

TA!


Mich

Gasless wire runs DCEN (torch negative, 'earth' positive) and solid wire runs DCEP (torch positive, 'earth' negative).
Running gasless wire with the torch positive might lead to excessive penetration which you've been interpreting as 'good' welds which is why (though your welds look very good) you think they're sub-standard.
Other than a very slight amount of 'cold-lap' in the odd place which is caused by that millscale, those welds look very nice.
At 170A you're pretty much maxed out for 4mm anyway so having to run the machine at it's top setting sounds about right.
I'll also bet that you're not getting the full 170A out of it, you'll only get that in exceptional circumstances as it's dependent on several factors which an amateur welder will rarely get perfect.
Robert hit the nail on the head right at the outset, that millscale will have a detrimental effect on your ability to lay a good weld, get rid of it and I'll bet you'll see an instant improvement.

 

[Wozzaaah]

Lower wire feed speed = lower amps.
The power settings are voltage, the current is determined by the wire diameter, arc length and feed speed.
Slower travel speed will put more heat into the weld but may result in a bead that's too fat. Well worth experimenting though.
Spaffmonkey could also have a point about your gas, you may be better off with universal or even heavy.
There's certainly nothing wrong with the machine (or the user ), just a fine-tune in technique and you're sorted.

 

[mich]

Ow dear... I was convinced that by lowering the wire speed I could still get the same amps/heat into the metal, yet have a bit more time to stay on a single spot and get some heat into it. One learns every day! =)

P.S. Do you know what those two small knobs are on that welder, between the spot welding timer and the wire feed adjuster? I have no idea!

Cheers!

Mich

Lower wire feed speed = lower amps.
The power settings are voltage, the current is determined by the wire diameter, arc length and feed speed.
Slower travel speed will put more heat into the weld but may result in a bead that's too fat. Well worth experimenting though.
Spaffmonkey could also have a point about your gas, you may be better off with universal or even heavy.
There's certainly nothing wrong with the machine (or the user ), just a fine-tune in technique and you're sorted.

 

[Wozzaaah]

One looks like it's a burnback control, that adjusts how far the wire protrudes from the tip after you finish the run, the other appears to be a slope control, not something you see very often on mig welders, they're normally found on tig machines.

 

[R Kraft]

To get the maximum penetration out your machine.

You set it for maximum amps and adjust the wire feed speed until it pushes the gun away.
This means you are feeding the wire faster than it can burn off.
You then adjust it to a slightly lower speed so that it is not pushing away.
You also have to keep the torch tip as close to the work as you can,like 8mm or less.
The angle of the torch should be as close to 90 degrees as you can keep it, and still see the weld pool.
If you need to put more heat into a weld you can use a looping motion to make a wider bead and force more heat into the area.:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RrDeUKcH4
Some people also say pulling the torch will give better penetration and a narrower bead.
If the metal you are trying to weld is very cold,it will help if you heat it to 100-200F.
Sorry if I ran on a bit,or if you have already tried all of these.
Robert

 

[mich]

Hi Robert,

by no means 'running on' ! This is actually exactly the sort of tips I was looking for, so that I could get the best out of my welder. I did also notice that pull welding produced better penetration. And when I was welding Gasless pull-welding was the only thing I could ever do. Push was a no-no... it just didn't produce the right results with my welder.

But thanks a million for all the responses. I didn't have time tonight to do anymore testing, but I'll be doing some test runs tomorrow evening and will report back.


TA!! =)

To get the maximum penetration out your machine.

You set it for maximum amps and adjust the wire feed speed until it pushes the gun away.
This means you are feeding the wire faster than it can burn off.
You then adjust it to a slightly lower speed so that it is not pushing away.
You also have to keep the torch tip as close to the work as you can,like 8mm or less.
The angle of the torch should be as close to 90 degrees as you can keep it, and still see the weld pool.
If you need to put more heat into a weld you can use a looping motion to make a wider bead and force more heat into the area.:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RrDeUKcH4
Some people also say pulling the torch will give better penetration and a narrower bead.
If the metal you are trying to weld is very cold,it will help if you heat it to 100-200F.
Sorry if I ran on a bit,or if you have already tried all of these.
Robert

 

[R Kraft]

One other thing.
Sometimes the mill scale is very hard, a wire brush or powered cup brush will just polish the surface of the scale.
In cases like that , you will have to use a small grinder.
Robert

 

[mich]

One other thing.
Sometimes the mill scale is very hard, a wire brush or powered cup brush will just polish the surface of the scale.
In cases like that , you will have to use a small grinder.
Robert

Cool, will keep that in mind. =)

 

[Bobo]

Another thing. When i was getting my argoshield they asked what thickness metal i would be using and i said probably 2mm upwords so they recommended
i got argoshield universal as the light was better for thinner stuff. just a thort.

My experiance was much they same, the guy asked me what are you welding? "Just thin stuff mainly, car body panels and the like." I asked why does it make any difference, he said Argoshield Light is really only suitable upto about 3mm steel thickness, I said yes 3mm's quite thick that'll do.

Bobo.

 

[mich]

********...... I was asked what kind of thickness I wanted to go up to and I said up to 6mm... and they recommended Argoshield Light. Feck. Now I'm stuck with the bottle for a while.

My experiance was much they same, the guy asked me what are you welding? "Just thin stuff mainly, car body panels and the like." I asked why does it make any difference, he said Argoshield Light is really only suitable upto about 3mm steel thickness, I said yes 3mm's quite thick that'll do.

Bobo.

 

[Paul.]

Its true that a higher Co2 will help to weld thicker sections, but Argoshield light should be ok for your 4mm job, this is a job I did last week, blasting a load of 6mm thick cleats to 100 x 100 x 6.3 box section, all done with a single phase 160 amp Eland welder 0.8 wire and Argoshield light, for BOC gas recommendations see here,
If you are planning to do a lot of this type of work or heavier, Argoshield universal would probably be a better choice, but may cause you problems on very thin materials,

 

[mich]

Thanks for that Paul. I was beginning to think that I was stuck with the wrong gas. I'll give it a blast tonight, cleaning the material properly and playing around with the settings until I can get some more penetration.

Its true that a higher Co2 will help to weld thicker sections, but Argoshield light should be ok for your 4mm job, this is a job I did last week, blasting a load of 6mm thick cleats to 100 x 100 x 6.3 box section, all done with a single phase 160 amp Eland welder 0.8 wire and Argoshield light, for BOC gas recommendations see here,
If you are planning to do a lot of this type of work or heavier, Argoshield universal would probably be a better choice, but may cause you problems on very thin materials,