Whats everyone using for a gas economiser ?

[CRS51]

Hello, just wondering what everyone is using for their gas economiser for Argon ? Have been looking around and they seem to go from around £60 to sky's the limit. Honest opinions and savings and costs would be a great help.
Just picked up another bottle of argon and anything that saves a few pounds would be a good thing. I currently have a 2 year old 2 stage regulator and a flow meter, and have a torch flow meter on order. Still only learning with the tig set so am not going through a vast amount of gas.
Cheers Chris.

 

[chevy2]

I simply adjust the regulator so that the LPM guage is reading only just above what maximum flow rate you run on your flowmeter, this way you dont get a massive rush of gas when you first fire an arc,
Also, remember to re-adjust your postflow lower for when you lower your welding amps,
both of these will save gas.

 

[backpurge]

Economisers are mostly smoke and mirrors, they only really come into their own if you are doing a lot of stops and starts as they eliminate pre weld gas surge

Some of the claims made by sales reps are totally ridiculous, the best I have come across was for a unit they were charging £250 each for and when you analysed their claims properly the unit would have had to have been making gas for the figures to stack up

You can minimise this by fully opening your flowmeter and setting the gas flow using the pressure adjustment screw on the regulator, this helps reduce the build up of pressure when you take your finger off the trigger and the gas solenoid shuts

 

[CRS51]

I simply adjust the regulator so that the LPM guage is reading only just above what maximum flow rate you run on your flowmeter, this way you dont get a massive rush of gas when you first fire an arc,
Also, remember to re-adjust your postflow lower for when you lower your welding amps,
both of these will save gas.

Thanks chevy2 have tried what you have suggested and the regulator must be faulty as I had the flowmeter set at 6lpm and did as you said and when the gas cuts off and starts again the reg seems to pop before letting the gas through and this is intermittent at the low pressures, I have to up the pressure to get it to behave.

So I started swapping the regulator with my spare which s usually on the mig and took some pics for you.
Almost 25 bar pressure difference between the two regs, one is a HI-LO that I bought brand new which has had half a bottle of gas through it and the other is a R-tech supplied unit which came with my welder when I bought it new. Not very good.
Can you or anyone recommend a -good- regulator that will read correctly and also not leak gas ?
Out of interest the r-tech reg leaks gas from the high pressure side and the HI-LO does not on the same argon bottle, this was done over night.
Cheers Chris.

 

[dannyp]

best way of saveing gas i've found is to have a 2 stage regulator the output from the reg itself stays the same start to finish on the bottel.

and i put the flow meter on the back of the welder / wire feed

 

[Mr shiney]

Am I missing something here? Gas is cheap enough to not worry about a Little waste?

 

[langy]

Am I missing something here? Gas is cheap enough to not worry about a Little waste?

 

[Mr shiney]

Having serviced SCUBA and BA kit for the last 25 years, I can assure you will find it perfectly normal for a regulator to 'leak down' over night. They leak past the seats and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Cheaper regs with cheaper seats will leak down faster but they will all go in due course. The amount of gas you lose on leak down is less than you will fart out after a curry!!!

The amount of gas lost in pre flow and post flow etc is measured in centi litres and really is truly negligible in the global scheme of things.

To put it in perspective when I drain down my 350bar Gas booster pump from helium I will have lost more monies worth of gas in that single action than you will lose in Argon in a year of TIG welding.

 

[Appyasme]

Are you scratch starting,maybe a TIG Torch with a on/off valve might help.Say a WP 9V torch.The best regulator we use,and we use loads,is a Murex Multi Stage,this type of reg will help as you do not have the rising pressure charateristic as you do with a single stage reg.

 

[dannyp]

two stage reg makes all the diffeance imo. a cheep singel stage can be flowing twice as much towards the end of a bottel compared to the start. two stage you set it and thats it done

 

[CRS51]

Am I missing something here? Gas is cheap enough to not worry about a Little waste?

I have to respectfully disagree about gas being cheap enough to not worry about a little waste, a full size bottle of argon has just cost me a few pounds under a quarter of my weekly wage so I don't really want to see any wastage.
Chris.

 

[Mr shiney]

I have to respectfully disagree about gas being cheap enough to not worry about a little waste, a full size bottle of argon has just cost me a few pounds under a quarter of my weekly wage so I don't really want to see any wastage.
Chris.

And how much gas wastage in Argon will you need to have to cover the cost f a snake oil gadget?

I pay £28 for Argon at 230bar. So that's 230x20=4600l which is 1.6p per litre. At normal TIG usage I would be surprised if you wasted a litre in a session but assume you did and we round it up, you are wasting 2p per session. So what's the pay back period on your £60 economiser?

I just really don't see what the concern is? When we pump helium we fill it to 300bar and I bet we lose 30l every time we dump the system and that's of gas that costs nearly £300 for a W.

 

[daleyd]

And how much gas wastage in Argon will you need to have to cover the cost f a snake oil gadget?

I pay £28 for Argon at 230bar. So that's 230x20=4600l which is 1.6p per litre. At normal TIG usage I would be surprised if you wasted a litre in a session but assume you did and we round it up, you are wasting 2p per session. So what's the pay back period on your £60 economiser?

I just really don't see what the concern is? When we pump helium we fill it to 300bar and I bet we lose 30l every time we dump the system and that's of gas that costs nearly £300 for a W.

I would have thought for a DIYer the savings would be negligible, but I suppose for someone welding several hours a day 5 days a week it would soon mount up.

I guess that's what these things are aimed at, larger fab shops and the pro's. Like Mr shiney says though, for the home user I would have thought the benefits would be marginal at best.

 

[backpurge]

I would have thought for a DIYer the savings would be negligible, but I suppose for someone welding several hours a day 5 days a week it would soon mount up.

I guess that's what these things are aimed at, larger fab shops and the pro's. Like Mr shiney says though, for the home user I would have thought the benefits would be marginal at best.

You're dead right, the majority of people who are using these bits of kit are either on bulk fed systems from liquid tanks or have high cylinder useage

 

[Richard.]

Am I missing something here? Gas is cheap enough to not worry about a Little waste?

Where do you get it. I want some if it's cheap enough to waste.

 

[Mr shiney]

Where do you get it. I want some if it's cheap enough to waste.

Every time I open my mouth gas comes out......

 

[Tom J]

Hi folks

Let me share my experience with Argon Economizer
Just bought one from R-Tech.
http://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/argon-economiser-wa-mw15210/
One was leaking, got replacement next day and still leaking - PV tape sort it out.
None of them where calibrated to 8 lpm, like advert states - no big deal (flat screwdriver and done)
Back to the point. This device meant to save you gas by reducing surge each time when you press the trigger.
Little graph shows that your spike (surge should be below 20 lpm) when measured.
For clarity I check the flow at far end - means at the torch gas lens (flow meter used - tube with cone rubber shape)

https://plus.google.com/u/0/1035735...6281575322298758034&oid=103573503196390706653

Result:
@ 10 lpm - surge is 60 lpm+ (hard to obtain the figure as ball is heating the end of the second tube!)
@ 8 lpm - surge ~45 lpm
@ 5 lpm - surge ~30 lpm (this is below what we use for welding)

IMO these device gives only more accurate setting on flow and as being 2nd stage regulation keeps that way while pressure in bottle reduces so no needs for compensation (on condition that 1st stage is set more than 10 lpm)

I am looking for two stage argon gas regulator, so far I found only one for reasonable price:
http://www.hisltd.co.uk/SWP-Superflow-2-Stage-2-Gauge-Argon-Regulator.html#Product34116010
https://www.weldequip.com/fabmaster-multi-stage-regulators.htm
http://www.smw-welding-supplies.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=Multistage_Regulator&cat=24

Any ideas, observations?

Thanks
Tom

 

[Tom J]

Just bought:
http://www.hisltd.co.uk/SWP-Superflow-2-Stage-2-Gauge-Argon-Regulator.html#Product34116010
£755.55 inc. VAT and delivery will update.

 

[Robotstar5]

Just bought:
http://www.hisltd.co.uk/SWP-Superflow-2-Stage-2-Gauge-Argon-Regulator.html#Product34116010
£755.55 inc. VAT and delivery will update.

Hope you've ordered 10 regulators or got the decimal place wrong?

 

[nick952]

At the same time as I bought my R-tec 201, I decided to get an Elga regulator (before the wallet had time to recover from the initial trauma).
At first I was dissapointed with the ammount of surge still happening. But after gripping the connecting hose from the regulator to the welder, in my hand and then activating the machines gas solenoid, I could feel the hose contracting and then epanding again, when the solenoid opened and closed.
I had some spare unused Goodrich stainless steel braided brake hose hanging up, so modified some fittings and used that instead.

Nick.