What do you folks make of this...mig'd control arm

[secretsmoker]

Up way past my bedtime browsing the project threads on driftworks. Generally the workmanship of projects is pretty good and often outstanding. Stumbled upon this picture however of an extended lower control arm on an s13...

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the quality/legality of this sort of mod?

I am in need of some modified steering knuckles and my question would be is it ever acceptable to have welded mods on critical suspension components?

In case you were wondering the welded control arm is fitted to this thing....

Not someone I know hence don't want to link directly to the thread itself.

 

[Angusdog]

I'm no expert but the soot from lack of gas coverage is one indication it's done by an amateur, undercutting on the 'brace' they've welded on is another. I don't like it and think you're right to be cautious. In NZ, the colour scheme is enough to get you picked up by the fuzz...

 

[langy]

Up way past my bedtime browsing the project threads on driftworks. Generally the workmanship of projects is pretty good and often outstanding. Stumbled upon this picture however of an extended lower control arm on an s13...

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the quality/legality of this sort of mod?

I am in need of some modified steering knuckles and my question would be is it ever acceptable to have welded mods on critical suspension components?

In case you were wondering the welded control arm is fitted to this thing....

Not someone I know hence don't want to link directly to the thread itself.

Isn't it illegal to weld steering/suspension components

 

[zzr1200]

Its does look a bit rough and I wouldn't trust it....

But considering some of the poor quality automated welding you see on production parts at times, provided the modified part is welded properly I can't see a problem.

I have personally modified/cut-n-shut propshafts/steering/suspension components on my own vehicles for competition/road use and not had any problems (most mods have been through an MOT inspection).

The problems starts when someone alters a part way beyond their engineering capabilities/knowledge and someone else gets hurt..

 

[BillJ]

Isn't it illegal to weld steering/suspension components

In the UK MOT (assuming the original poster is in the UK), a front lower control arm probably comes under "Steering system" or "Suspension".

Section 2.2:

Method of Inspection
e. inappropriate modification or repairs, especially by welding, or evidence that excessive heat has been applied, to steering components or structural members

Reason for Rejection
e. inappropriate structural modification or repair by welding to a steering linkage component, or signs of excessive heat having been applied


Section 2.4:

Information
An inappropriate repair or modification includes welded repairs or the use of excessive heat to highly stressed components (see Appendix C) and modifications which are likely to affect the roadworthiness of the vehicle.


Taken from here: http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/index.htm

 

[DrNik]

if all the welds were cleaned up and the reinforcement removed, then painted black im sure it would LOOK ok, but looking at the welds (lol no expert) if you ground it down i think you'd loose a lot of strength, id have run some box section inside and then made the cover plate so the MOT tester couldnt see any modification, has the wishbone been extended?? if so why

 

[DrNik]

dont get me started on VOSA/MOT standards lol

 

[wheresmejumper]

a steering knuckle material is a lot different to the arm shown above
cant remember exactly what the nissan knuckles are made from,but either cast or forged
so the practicality/structural quality is different to migging pressed steel

legally,requiring extra lock only satisfies one thing,so going sideways on a public road doesnt need further discussion.
if its a track car,then scrutineering or race guidelines etc is the place to ask

 

[secretsmoker]

Not sure but I think the guy is in the UK.

In this case I couldn't really tell you why the arm was extended. Many of these guys lower their cars til they are scraping which can cause excessive camber. Some folk use the after market arms to square everything up again and delete some camber near to the extremes of motion on the arm. Some extra camber is probably advantageous if running wide wheels with stretched tyres in order to get the tucked or flush look where there is precious little gap between the arch lip and tyre wall and no suspension travel hardly.

The effect of this mod is probably going to be even more camber but his arches arent in danger of chewing any tyres at that height so the goal appears to be reckless endangerment!

I wanted to experiment with knuckles to try to achieve a little more lock on my MX5 without using dodgy rack spacers, but also to try for a more parallel ackerman angle on full lock which can help to maintain momentum as the inner front wheel is not dragging and also reputedly helps turn-in feel and steering correction once in a drift. Pie in the sky idea really and unlike this kid I would not trust my welding on bits like this let alone steering. I would love to just buy after market bits but surprisingly even though MX5s are popular drifters now, there still aren't many options geometry wise compared to Nissans etc.

 

[BillJ]

a steering knuckle material is a lot different to the arm shown above

My interpretation of the MOT guidelines is that the above would cover suspension arms as well as steering knuckles. Section 2.4 is "Suspension" and even section 2.2 refers to "steering components or structural members" and the lower arm forms part of both the suspension system and the steering system, in my view.

 

[secretsmoker]

I think on a road car there won't be much of a distinction; regardless of the materials being welded that clause seems clear enough.

I have seen photos of fairly convincing LOOKING modded knuckles where mma and preheat were used, although the guy had used a mild steel plate section welded next to the joint in the cast section for reinforcement. I will search nutz again for the pic. Imagining any sort of heat treatment after casting is probably going incur brittleness though.

Cheers for the responses, I think I will leave the pikey geometry mods alone!

 

[wheresmejumper]

My interpretation of the MOT guidelines is that the above would cover suspension arms as well as steering knuckles. Section 2.4 is "Suspension" and even section 2.2 refers to "steering components or structural members" and the lower arm forms part of both the suspension system and the steering system, in my view.

i completely agree.i was just pointing out that in practical terms,there is no point comparing a pressed steel arm,to a cast/forged steering knuckle.they have completely different properties to take into consideration when welding.i wasnt commenting on your post

 

[zzr1200]

In the UK MOT (assuming the original poster is in the UK), a front lower control arm probably comes under "Steering system" or "Suspension".

Section 2.2:

Method of Inspection
e. inappropriate modification or repairs, especially by welding, or evidence that excessive heat has been applied, to steering components or structural members

Reason for Rejection
e. inappropriate structural modification or repair by welding to a steering linkage component, or signs of excessive heat having been applied


Section 2.4:

Information
An inappropriate repair or modification includes welded repairs or the use of excessive heat to highly stressed components (see Appendix C) and modifications which are likely to affect the roadworthiness of the vehicle.


Taken from here: http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/index.htm

So what about when some fully trained hairy arsed mechanic has taken the hot spanner to a track rod tube with a seized in ball joint on a HGV to remove it.....

It all depends totally on experience/skill...

 

[secretsmoker]

i completely agree.i was just pointing out that in practical terms,there is no point comparing a pressed steel arm,to a cast/forged steering knuckle.they have completely different properties to take into consideration when welding.i wasnt commenting on your post

I realise that, apologies if the tone of my post came across rather sharp!

With regards to welding cast I truly wouldn't dream of attempting it at the moment. My friend who trained as a blacksmith and ended up in fabrication may be able to help me play with this in future. He has a couple of old anvils he was on about doing up with hard facing rods and I would love to watch what he does.

On a different subject entirely a blacksmith mate is also very useful whilst camping; he created an incredibly even burning fire in no time at all which was perfect for marshmallows!

 

[BillJ]

I realise that, apologies if the tone of my post came across rather sharp!

I think he was responding to my post and yes, he's right - a steering knuckle is different from a steel pressing but not for MOT purposes, it seems.

 

[Jiffers]

im an hairy arsed ginger technician/mot tester if it was brought to me i would fail it but if it was a good job and braced correctly and painted i would pass it an have done before.
but if someone has cut and shut a steering control arm or you could see any cut and shut on steering column the same
though if it has been sleeved so looks factory you would have to pass and advise

 

[drivewasher]

The rules on MoT is if a suspension arm , as that is, is they can be repaired by welding as long as
*The welding is sound and the component being repaired was origonally welded during it's manufacture. It would not be acceptable for a pressed and "rolled" together arm to be welded as it wasn't welded when made new.

If the welding was rough I would fail it on "An inappropriate repair or modification"


This is what the manual tells us,

"Welded repairs to highly stressed components such as steering/suspension arms, rods, levers etc are not normally acceptable, other than where the component is made up of sections that are welded together. In these cases the repair should appear to be as strong as the original design."

 

[skotl]

Interesting thread.

I'm a mod on a 4x4 forum and we have had a lot of internal wrangles when members (mainly commercial ones) produce and advertise what we consider to be safety-critical items. These can range from suspension lift shackles (our 4x4s are pretty agricultural, with leaf springs at the back) to ball-joint spacers.
The latter are what caused most ructions with a number of us (including me) being unconvinced by the research and lack of VOSA testing (despite Dr Nik's misgivings )

Even if I was any good at welding, which I'm not, I wouldn't be welding any safety critical parts of me car...

 

[BrokenBiker]

my father had a hilux for a time, and we jacked that up 6 inches on homemade risers.

a few bits of 20mm thick mild steel, welded in a 'H' with the bottom of the 'H' being 40mm thick.

was all welded by a fitter that works with my dad. he is coded in some form of welding I think, not sure what though.

anyway, point is, those homebrew risers were on there 2 and a half years, went through 2 mot's, both at different garages and not a word was said about them either time.

I do agree about not welding steering or brake components though, but I am not opposed to welding suspension parts in order to raise/lower the ride height.

 

[AgentWayward]

I'm unsure how I feel about all of your conservative aproaches to this.
I guess I'm in 2 minds about it. On the one hand, the suspension arm shown doesn't look very clever at all and safety should be prime.
But the idea that welding a safety critical / structural component is out, surprises me.

I build motorcycle sidecars from scratch, that includes the entire frame, suspension components, swing arms, etc. These are all welded steel constructions.
I make steel tube subframes for motorcycles to carry sidecars, again, all welded steel.

Nobody gets hurt.

It's not that difficult to learn to mig weld to a standard where things won't break.

Of course, if the reason for the mods are to go "drifting", then please throw away your welder and go do somethig less laughable instead. You are embarrassing yourself.