Sieg Milling machine's and Lathe's:

[carlos420uk]

These machines seem to be quite popular on the hobby / small workshop scene, and are sold by various company's under differing names (Much like the Clarke 4x6 Bandsaw).

I am tempted by a Mill and Lathe (Super X3 mill and x3 Lathe), and having looked at a few used items and walking away am getting to the point where a new off the shelf 240v machine might be a safer, easier bet for my what my needs are.

The problem I have is most of the old and well built machines is they are either too big and cumbersome for my to fit and move to my work space, plus the fact a lot of them are 3 phase only, are missing parts etc etc.
Whereas these smaller machines come complete with a few bits of tooling, are movable to a degree and also run off 240v, so more ideal for what I need.

The main question I have basically is am I wasting my time and money on a machine like these Sieg models if I want a reliable, accurate machine for milling and turning small parts at home? I am fully aware that these machines all originate from China, but I don't think there is much that isn't these days sadly

Main things I am worried about is play and backlash etc that will compromise accuracy, is this non-existent on say a Bridgeport as a comparison?
I realize that for the money I can't expect 0.001mm accuracy, but something close to acceptable that I could work with would be nice.

So if anyone has any information, or actually own's one of the above machine's I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions on it / them.

Cheers.

 

[Shox Dr]

A mate of mine has a lathe and mill. It is truly amazing what he produces with them: in size, complexity and accuracy. BUT he is ex-Brough Aero Space, so knows what he is doing.

 

[carlos420uk]

Do you know which models he uses? Is it the X3 mill and X6 lathe?

Well I definitely don't know what I'm doing when it comes to machining However I am willing to spend time on a long learning curve, and if these machines are capable of doing some nice work I'm sure I could get there in the end.

I still can't help but think something old and heavy would be better, but logistically it's not really a possibility. One of these would be a decent'ish compromise I'd like to think. As I say though, the last thing I want to do is invest in a useless piece of junk that ends up on the bay a few months later.

From the reviews I've read the Sieg's seem to be pretty reliable and have good ratings by most hobbyist's. Also seen quite a few cnc conversions done.

 

[Shox Dr]

I don't sorry.

A few things to mind: You can only take very light cuts, you will only be able to turn/mill small items.

As for a bigger stuff, it all strips down, and all the bits will be manageable to lift by 2/3 people

 

[Perry Owens]

These mills are capable of very good work if you are prepared to invest some time fettling them. Normally that involves complete dismantling, cleaning off grease and casting sand, adjusting the gibs, shimming the column etc. Some would consider that as a PITA but I find it adds to the understanding of the machine. There are a number of support forums and individual web sites that tell you all you need to know about tuning these mills.
The Seig X0, X1 and X2 mills used to come with plastic gear trains which were noisy and broke if you were over enthusiastic with your cuts. Belt drive conversions can be had but the new SX2 and the X3 mills now have brushless DC motors and direct drive. There are lots of cheap DROs about and CNC conversion seems to be a popular hobby. Prices seem to vary a lot and at the moment Arc Euro Trade have the best price and a good bundled offer on the X3. The mills sold by SPG and Warco are made by Real Bull, not Seig. I have a Real Bull lathe and it's excellent but I have no experience of their mills.

 

[Buzza]

There's been lots of discussion about these and similar machines on this site http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/ . Several of the forum members have them.

Steve

 

[FranV8]

I've got an SPG mill, it's a blue version of the Warco WM18. I use it for quite a bit of welding prep stuff, accuracy seems fine but that is from someone who at the moment is happy at getting 0.1mm, I think the mill will allow me to do better than this as I need. What is your budget, and what sort of small parts do you want to make?

 

[Pete.]

I realize that for the money I can't expect 0.001mm accuracy, but something close to acceptable that I could work with would be nice.

You can't expect that accuracy from any lathe or mill you could buy.

 

[carlos420uk]

I don't mind stripping down and setting the mill, as mentioned it helps you to understand what you are working with.

Budget is around 3k for both a mill and a lathe, but that must include at least some basic tooling for each. I was looking at buying from Arc Euro Trade as they have that bundle deal going on at the moment which seemed pretty good. The model they sell is the 1000w brushless direct drive.

I'd like to turn small parts on the lathe from upto around 50-75mm dia. round stock, in alu, ss and mild. Little collars with a flange on them, thread ends of round stock, cut grooves, make bushing sleeves etc

On the mill I'd like to make some billet brake caliper mounting brackets, suspension top hats, mounting brackets, fixtures for making other parts etc

I realise that I'll never get 0.001mm accuracy on anything within my budget but that was kind of a figure of speech, in reality Frans 0.1mm would do me just fine more than likely. I tend to expect a little too much from things some times lol

Thanks for the info, I think I might go for one or both of these after a few more weeks research.

I assume R8 is the preferred head (or whatever the termanology is) for the mill as opposed to mt3 given the choice, purely for the ease of tool changing and accuracy after changing tools? Or is that a can of worms question?

 

[Shox Dr]

You can't expect that accuracy from any lathe or mill you could buy.

You can if you rebuild it. Of coarse you need to start off with a descent machine in the first place

 

[Wallace]

I chose R8 for my Cheapnese mill so the tooling can be used on an adult machine like a Bridgeport if space ever allows me to get one.

 

[Perry Owens]

R8 is more common in the USA and MT3 in Europe. Many of the mini lathe and mill forums are USA-based, which may be why there is an R8 bias. R8 collets are self releasing but reduce the total throat depth of the mill compared to MT3. I went for MT3 because I already had MT3 tooling for my lathe.

 

[scott0031]

R8 is more common in the USA and MT3 in Europe. Many of the mini lathe and mill forums are USA-based, which may be why there is an R8 bias. R8 collets are self releasing but reduce the total throat depth of the mill compared to MT3. I went for MT3 because I already had MT3 tooling for my lathe.

That's not correct information. R8 is highly popular in Europe and especially the uk. Hobby based machines are not all that is out there........ I'm toolmaker by trade so i do sort of know. I have never never been in a shop that does not have R8 spindle machines. R8 also does not reduce any space under the spindle to table, they sit as flush as you can get to the spindle nose, hence that being one of the beauty's of them as the tool shank sit in the spindle adding to rigidity. I don't think you mean throat, the throat is the distance from spindle to machine body.


To the OP. There is a reason why older machines are big and heavy, Its because that's how machine tools need need to be made to make them efficient at their job compared to bendy machines. From that regard its a no brainier really. But as i always say, it's horses for courses.


What kind of accuracy are you wanting to achieve?



Kind regards,


Scott

 

[carlos420uk]

That's not correct information. R8 is highly popular in Europe and especially the uk. Hobby based machines are not all that is out there........ I'm toolmaker by trade so i do sort of know. I have never never been in a shop that does not have R8 spindle machines. R8 also does not reduce any space under the spindle to table, they sit as flush as you can get to the spindle nose, hence that being one of the beauty's of them as the tool shank sit in the spindle adding to rigidity. I don't think you mean throat, the throat is the distance from spindle to machine body.


To the OP. There is a reason why older machines are big and heavy, Its because that's how machine tools need are made to make them efficient at their job compared to bendy machines. From that regard its a no brainier really. But as i always say, it's horses for courses.


What kind of accuracy are you wanting to achieve?



Kind regards,


Scott

That's the conclusion I came to after a few hour's research on R8 vs. MT3. Later down the line I may want to convert the machine to CNC, so the R8 would be superior for jobs that require multiple tool changes, as the spindle would stay exactly where it was before you changed the tool. Whereas with MT3 you need to give it a good whack to remove the tool, which could move the position of the head slightly. Or something along those lines.

Plus I was told that R8 tooling is more popular like you say.

I understand that the big old machines are the best, no doubt. The problem I have been a newbie in this game is knowing what I'm looking at, checking if it's all in good condition and also the logistics of moving, situating and setting the machine up after purchase. All or most of these problems are made easier to deal with by buying one of these modern chinese mills, but as I keep saying I don't want to invest in junk.

To be totally honest regarding accuracy, I basically want the very best I can achieve with the budget I have, but 0.1mm or less would be nice. I always aim for perfection, but as that's not usually a possibility in the real world I'd settle for a close to as possible.

Also looking at it surely a mill could be used as a Lathe to a degree if you put the piece to be turned in the head and bolted a tool holder to the bed?

 

[carlos420uk]

I chose R8 for my Cheapnese mill so the tooling can be used on an adult machine like a Bridgeport if space ever allows me to get one.

It's quote's like these that make me just want to go for a Bridgeport

Which Chinese mill did you buy Wallace?

 

[ronan]

To the OP. There is a reason why older machines are big and heavy, Its because that's how machine tools need are made to make them efficient at their job compared to bendy machines. From that regard its a no brainier really. But as i always say, it's horses for courses.

Scott

+1, i would rather invest in an old professional grade machine thats ancient than a new chinese one thats not made of the right materials , not made to the correct tolerances and not heat treated correctly and also probabily just chucked together by a less than motivated worker.

Something like this harrison would be what i would be spending my hard earned on. http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/

 

[Pete.]

You can if you rebuild it. Of coarse you need to start off with a descent machine in the first place

You can work to less than half of a tenth of a thou on a lathe or milling machine? Sorry, I'm not buying that.

 

[Wallace]

It's quote's like these that make me just want to go for a Bridgeport

Which Chinese mill did you buy Wallace?

I have an XJ25 (or XJ9525 depending on who is selling them) with a power feed. I am tolerating it as I know it can be improved to suit my needs!

 

[MrFluffy]

I hear this reason for buying chinese every time these threads come up, and you can drive a old worn lathe a lot better than you can drive a new crap one... The only part that makes me nervous is spindle bearings on old stuff with roller headstocks, because the harrison gamet bearings cost so much.
Saddle, slide etc wear, its all possible to use the machine still with it like that and turn accurate work out, you just get used to winding back then forwards on a dial to take up the backlash.

I think nick mueller has it right on chinese qc. I don't even know why they bother to put that stupid qc passed ticket in the package as it seems like its not even signed or stamped most of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8NqeD73ZZ4

 

[Shox Dr]

You can work to less than half of a tenth of a thou on a lathe or milling machine? Sorry, I'm not buying that.

Shush! my lathe might hear you


It was said with tongue in cheek hence the