Floors/Inner Sill (Ford Capri) Advice

[Retro Rust]

Might be running before I can walk here but I recently bought an Rtech welder (after many years of wanting to weld) to fix up my Capri. I think this could be the perfect project once I've practiced how to weld thin metal and how I'm going to go about doing it as I'll be working outside In this area...



I thought I'd have a quick look today at the areas I know need work. Any advice or video links on how to go about these repairs would be great. The floor has started to separate from the inner sill. The sill looks solid from the top but obviously It's going to be a bit rusty where I can't see. Would it be best to angle grind the floor away next to the Sill and try to clean the Sill up with a Power File?

Here it is with an LED light under the car to show the rust.

I'm guessing this is sound deadening thats trapped a bit of surface rust. It kept chipping off and I couldnt get a magnet to stick to it. A screwdriver wouldnt go through the rust so hoping it will clean up.

Front floor has a hole in it which I guess would be straight forward.

Lastly theres a hole behind the passenger seat. Modeled by my finger.

I know it might be easier or a good Idea to by new floor pans and use what I need from them but I'm mainly intrested in knowing what to do if the Sill isnt too bad and you just want to let a bit of the floor in as I dont want to replace more than I need to to make it solid.

Also I guess it going to be a pain removing this sound deadening?

 

[Popcorn]

Probably easier to buy replacement panels and cut out what's needed to repair the original panels. Especially if you're new to this sort of restoration.
The sound deadening can be removed easily, just hit it with a hammer and it'll crack, you can already see cracks in your pic's.
Then use a chisel/big screwdriver to chip it off once you've got a bit off.

 

[Nomad]

Hi, looks like a solid project.

I've welded floors on Fords from the 60s (Mk1 Cortinas & 105E Anglia), also 70s (Escorts - very different construction) so have some experience.
What standard are you aiming for? (cut out all rust and remake is good but takes effort, cut out rust then weld a plate over the hole will pass an mot but isn't as neat).
Sound deadening - remove any that's close to where you will be welding (fire risk). Expect to find the rust spreads further than you expect once that is off. Use a heatgun will soften it and often makes it easier to remove.
Footwell - sometimes it's easier to remove the front wings for access in this area (are your wings welded or bolted on?).

Bonus tips:
check the inner & outer sills carefully, every Ford I've owned needed work there - some got whole new sills.
Look behind the wings - the top of the A-post often rusts where you can't see it.
Also check the inner wings around the McPherson struts - they are a common rust trap on Fords.
Tape brown paper over the windows before you start grinding or you will get rust spots in the glass in the future.

For yours, I'd start by removing the sound deadening in all the areas that look suspect until you get back to solid metal.
You can then see how much new metal you need, looking at the photos I'd expect it only needs patches cut from flat sheet not whole new floors.

My new fave tool is a battery die grinder, most of my prep work was done using that and a battery angle grinder.
Use the angle grinder to cut out any rust, die grinder to clean the last edges and areas with poor access, weld in new metal, die grinder & angle grinder to remove any lumps of weld.

Some ideas in my Escort thread https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum...-bodges-replace-rust-with-solid-metal.128066/

Keep us updated

 

[Retro Rust]

Thanks for the reply Nomad. I'd love to go for a level of finish that in the future warrants spending on a nice re spray but I know all the places you mentioned will need some attention so If I can remove as little as possible maybe thats the way forward. The rear off the passenger outer sill and arch is a bit of a mess too but theres not real rush to finish it. I have been using it as is and had the car for about 6 years now.

I'll try and get that sound deadening off as I guessed it was a fire hazard. its also got a lot of underseal to so I think it'll take a bit of cleaning up before I can get near it with the welder. I know I'll find more rust than I first thought so just trying to make a plan.

I'll check the die grinder out and your thread (just had a skim through and it looks great!)

 

[johnik]

did that to a capri i once owned, half way through i heard plink plink fizz, the plastic fuel pipe runs very near the sill and had burnt through depositing fuel next to my precious body...take care oot there.

 

[GRW]

I'm very much a newbie, very amateur welder (I started & joined here a few years ago now, but I don't weld often enough for long enough to be as good as I'd like.
I spent most of my time underneath my old LDV Convoy Camper on the driveway - so can empathise in advance with the joys of welding outside I awkward positions.

You spend 10x as much time grinding out & prepping, making patches etc (& dressing iffy-looking welds if you're me) as you do actual welding, so there's a large amount of drudgery & no visible progress - but if you're aware of that up front it's less soul-destroying. A bit.

The other thing is you're welding in an exposed area - so if there's any wind when welding outside the vehicle, gas-mig won't work as the shielding gas gets blown away.

It's not popular on here as its more messy and a bit harder to use on thin metal as it burns a bit hotter... but on my draughty driveway I had little choice but to use flux-core welding wire for the external welding (My Oxford let's me swap polarity for flux-core - lots of folk on here run R-Tech's so I'd be very surprised if you can't also - no doubt someone on here can tell you.

Also welding upside-down, vertical welds etc - the welder & weld behaves very differently - I'm rubbish at getting a decent setting and weld at the best of times (dead flat, horizontal bench welds) - & on your back with your head stuck under an axle or wheelarch trying can be no fun at all - you just have to persevere.

Good luck

 

[bricol]

I'm all for protecting the glass - but not with brown paper when you are firing red hot sparks and welding spatter about - they both will burn through . . "burn" being the important word!

Protect with something that doesn't burn - in my case, the house. I took the glass out and stored it inside.

I'd suggest if there is enough rust in the floor for daylight to show . . . then the inner sill isn't going to be in perfect condition either! There's more work there than you think. At this level of experience with welding, don't get too carried away with hacking rusty metal out - before you know it, you will have more fresh air than metal, and the task will look horrendous - and in a couple of years there will be an ad for a restoration project.

 

[dave h 2]

Spark proof Brown paper Some how the logic of grinding sparks able to melt their way into glass being unable to penetrate brown paper escapes me - only if sparks don't hit it I guess. BTW they will also make your overalls smoulder, don't ask how I know.
As it's been yours for 6 years I think an MOT man would have saved you a huge amount of work when you bought it.
There's a rule of thumb for Classics - if there is a lot of condensation on the inside of the glass or boot there's a hole letting the rain in.

Sort the sills first, find where the unrusted metal is.
Don't expect to weld rusted metal it's too thin, so don't bother with rust converters.

 

[NickW]

Those sills and floors haven't really 'separated' but are rusted away. Once you get into it, you'll find the outer sills are just as bad. As the floor joints are straight, and the sills are the main connection between the front and rear of the car, I'd start with repairing the inner sill. Then the floor, and finally the outer sill(don't get over sills, but the complete panel that spot welds to the inner sill/door seal flange). While you work, leave as much original material as you can, to work as a pattern.

I'd do the opposite with the rotten front footwells, as they're both curved and flanged, so would make and at least tack them in place first. I would expect to have cut above the ribs, and remove the middle one to get back to metal worth welding to. That will save having to make your repair match existing features. Bear in mind that if a Capri is rotten in these areas, the A-pillars will need work. Which means removing the wings, and probably remaking the wing rails. That leads to the scuttle corners, and the screen out. Then you find the strut towers aren't really metal anymore...

Rust is always worse than it first looks. Remove any underseal/paint, and run a grinder powered wire-brush over both sides of the affected area. Then go and have a good cry.

Try and resist the temptation to make patchwork quilts from lots of little bits welded together. Save that for your templates, but stick them together with masking tape.

Poundland sell specialist tools to scrape off the sound deadening. For some reason, they call them 'wood chisels?'

Don't start cutting the car until you've practiced both welding and basic panel forming! Having some sheet metal(of whatever thickness you're actually going to use) sheared into 300mm squares to practise butt-welding, flange forming, plug welding, grinding and bead forming(you can do a lot with the vice jaws and a ball pein hammer) will save a lot of grief.

 

[bricol]

Last century when I first started having to repair cars, I found a book in the local library - I found it very useful. Took me years to find a copy to buy, but it is apparently on Amazon:

Panel Craft: Featuring Ford Cortina Mk.1 Bodyshell Restoration: Amazon.co.uk: Sandham, Tommy: 9780951252307: Books

Buy Panel Craft: Featuring Ford Cortina Mk.1 Bodyshell Restoration by Sandham, Tommy (ISBN: 9780951252307) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

He uses gas welding/brazing more than anything else, but the principle of repair are the same.

I will say working in the dry, with lighting, no wind makes it so much easier - I waited a couple of years to repair one of mine, until I'd put up a pre-fab garage. Means you don't have to worry about rain getting into your repairs and immediately starting the rusting again. By then I'd worked on a quite few in a narrow driveway, trying to cover up with gazebos etc.

 

[daedalusminos]

Working outside is horrible, draughts removed shielding gas, moisture causes surface rust - both of which are a constant battle....if you can clear some inside space it's certainly worth doing, failing that a party tent or similar.

Get rid of all underseal and evaluate exactly what you have. By the time you've fabricated and welded 3 patch panels you might be better off replacing the whole half floor - just ensure you brace sufficiently.

You'll find repairs become much easier and quicker when you're welding new metal to new rather than having to clean up rusty original metal work.

 

[indykid]

If you end up with grinding dust stuck on your glass, a clay bar for paint does a decent job of removing it, with no noticeable damage to the glass

 

[carbonarc]

Something like this could be useful.

 

[bricol]

If you end up with grinding dust stuck on your glass, a clay bar for paint does a decent job of removing it, with no noticeable damage to the glass

Dust maybe - but then that should brush or wash off anyway, as long as you've not let it sit and rust.

A hot spark eats into the glass and sticks - it will rip a clay bar. Will come off with a metal scraper, but will leave a hole, damage, in the glass. With side glass or rear window's it's not too bad - but windscreens - stuck particles rip wiper blades, damage refracts light etc.

With screens in rubber seals, easy to remove and store - bonded in are a little more difficult. Especially if the ends of the hot wire have gone - 70's ~Lancia Betas had bonded in screens - and the wire ends had gone, meaning it had to be hacked out - a right pain.

 

[pressbrake1]

I did the same job to my old capri in 1990
No panels available so had to make everything

 

[dave h 2]

Something like this could be useful.View attachment 484794

Like yes but bigger, Capri are 14foot and shield it from the sparks too.

 

[Retro Rust]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm very aware there will be a lot more rust than just in the photos. You can see it needs an outer sill or parts of one on the passenger side. As people have said the wing rail has been filled in the past so will need attention there plus the passenger side wing is a bit rotten at the bottom. I have a new one but I'm guessing there will be some nice surprises at the bottom of the A piller. Although when you stick you hand behind the bottom of the wing (and press hard) it feels really solid.

Once I get the rest of my welding gear and some metal to practice with I'm hoping in March I can get enough practice in to think about chipping away at the Capri to see what I have to replace, even If I dont touch it for a while after then.

Maybe I'll buy a floor section to chop up although they aint cheep. If I can learn to weld well and it takes me all year to make a nice car out of it, I'm alright with that though.

Pardon our interruption...

I think someone mentioned an MOT guy 6 years ago? It didnt really run then. It runs and drives nice now but obviously its getting a bit beyond whats ok for the road Also my main Car for 11 years is a Ford Escort mk3 so I know rust well haha, I just need to stop paying other people to weld them if I can as its getting a bit expensive to say the least!!! And I want a go too, alway been interested in the idea.

For small patches or metal and to practice with, do most people buy new from a welding / metal supplier or pick up an old wing etc and use that?

Also if I buy a Power File Sander... is cordless better? I dont have a cordless angle grinder but I'm wondering if cordless is a lot better for getting in areas?

 

[bricol]

Problem with cordless is when the battery runs out and the spare isn't charged.
One benefit of a cordless grinders is I don't think they make as much overall noise as a corded one. The discs start the same size, so no better access. I do keep some worn slitting discs for getting into smaller areas if needed. Don't forget decent snips and even a hammer and decent chisel - I've chopped repair sections out of scrap yard cars with just a hammer and chisel.

I have a corded powerfile and I found it useful - cleaning up before and after welding. Similar for a few carbide burrs, even if only used in a drill.

Some method of forming bends on repair bits would be useful too - for years I used a couple of lengths of angle iron in the vice with clamps on the ends to hold sections, and block of wood or just a hammer to turn an edge over. Even gaps between paving slabs used to hold metal while I battered/pushed it over into a flange

 

[bricol]

For a car I knew I was going to keep, I stripped everything out of it - less risk of an accident spark melting a hole though a seat, dash, door panel etc. Never mind the risk of fire. Also gives a good view of it - you might decide it's a bit much for a first project and better when it's still a moveable shell than something propped up on blocks of wood needing a crane to shift.

 

[NickW]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm very aware there will be a lot more rust than just in the photos. You can see it needs an outer sill or parts of one on the passenger side. As people have said the wing rail has been filled in the past so will need attention there plus the passenger side wing is a bit rotten at the bottom. I have a new one but I'm guessing there will be some nice surprises at the bottom of the A piller. Although when you stick you hand behind the bottom of the wing (and press hard) it feels really solid.



Maybe I'll buy a floor section to chop up although they aint cheep.



For small patches or metal and to practice with, do most people buy new from a welding / metal supplier or pick up an old wing etc and use that?

In order:

With the wing off, you'll find the large vertical panel of the A-pillar will be in very poor shape. The bit of the bulkhead it joins to will probably need some help too. You can now buy formed splash shields to fit inside the wings behind the wheels....

If you can get a floor section(that fits), why chop it up? It's less work, and a better job if you fit one big panel than several patches.

You need to find a local supplier for your metal. It's much easier to walk in and point at what you want! Every panel supplier I've bought from will sell whole or part sheets of appropriate sheet steel. Most of them offer pre-bent sections like you would use to repair the edge of your floor, or top hat profiles. Not cheap, but saves so much time and work. Ask the local paint factor if you can't find somewhere by yourself. You have better things to do than spend hours making a mess grinding paint off panels just to practice on.

Dave Gardiner's 2.5hour long Bodywork Restoration Tutorial DVD from Classic Metalshaping clearly shows how to make and fit simple and complex panels with affordable tools.