Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[rhubarb7]

Should of bought a Rover 75 (BMW build quality you know!) -




Wetting myself!

I remember there being a note on the mot manual to pass them with weak/poor handbrakes..45's and 75's Could push them by hand..Well engineered indeed lol.

BMW kept Rover in business for a few more years, they would have gone bust long before otherwise.

K series headgaskets and failed cambelts kept me in work. Oh and trailing arm bushes.

 

[rhubarb7]

Plenty of vehicles that have full main dealer service history and are shot down by electrical gremlins. As @premmington stated it doesn't take long for diagnostic work to outstrip the value of cars. Especially when you get to 10+ years old.
Which is a shame considering we are supposed to be driving down waste

But to be fair 10 years is the design life of most vehicles.. Otherwise they'd never sell any new ones...

 

[willie.macleod]

Someone (you maybe?) Said that the older Leafs can actually be worked on?
As in Nissan haven't coded the hell out of everything and made it impossible etc (something I'd be amazed about if any recent car permits)?
I imagine they are still complicated and you might need a PHD in electronics to have a clue whsts to do though?
10-years is old for an EV - can you /is it affordable - service/maintain/repair & keep it on the road for say another decade?

Yes, although mine to be fair so far hasn't needed more than a handbrake cable, tyres and brake pads/disks. Car mechanics mag had a good article on common faults, it isn't normal to go board level diagnostics on these you just swap the unit that has failed out - charger/inverter/heater etc. There's charts out there for compatibility of units, Nissan had quite a few revisions but seemed to try and keep compatibility up. Standard OBD diagnostics talk to it, there is a very good phone app called LeafSpy which links with your normal £10 bluetooth ELM 323 dongles and allows all manner of diagnostics to be carried out including coding of some units.

Nissan workshop manuals are out there easy enough to find FOC, CANBUS codes out there, all the bits are desirable for conversions. The EV bits in mine are destined to go into a Solihull product at the end of its life as a Leaf. I am a triggers broom type of person and I would hope to be able to keep things for a reasonable length of time, I have the IMI EV ticket which is easy for any mechanic to get and its well worth it as it will allow access to the likes of HEVRA where you buy into their knowledge/backup/specialist tool hire etc. if you need it.

 

[rhubarb7]

Joking aside the Honda/Rover period did produce some very good cars. 200/400/800 25/45

The Honda engine'd ones were very good. Rover K series lumps were ok as long as really well maintained/loved..Slight coolant leak stuffed them.

Remember the silicone tracks on the head gaskets and the dowels that allowed the cylinder head to move!! Well engineered indeed! Kept me busy

 

[premmington]

There are a couple of issues, firstly, the systems - both operational and diagnostic, are written by humans - often different teams, then there are the actuators and sensors - sometimes in one assembly as a closed-loop device (EGR valve for example) The sensors feed the control module, which then trigger the actuators. Each circuit is monitored so open or short circuits should be easily identifiable, the problem comes when sensor inputs are wrong, but within the plausible range. This requires a suitably skilled human to look at the live data in the specific failure mode then make a judgement as to the likely cause, rectify the cause, retest in the specific failure mode then reassess the results - sometimes further testing will be required but most diag. tech's will get to the root cause in one sitting.

I'm sure you can see from the above, where the potential problems lie, one of the best brands for 'joined up thinking' I've worked for was Volvo, they were somewhat hamstrung after Ford broke up PAG but left them with some 'residue' to clean up, the later systems benefitted greatly from one production & diagnostic team (or at least sharing of homework).

Sounds easy does it not.

Then there are cars people have neglected and carried on using with faults and only bring it to garage when it finally grinds to halt and has multiple faults . Then there are cars that are mapped - had things deleted/emulated.

 

[Ubique]

It'll be worse with EV owners. I've spoken to some that think there's no engine so it won't go wrong.

I was visiting family last weekend, next door neighbour with a 2 1/2 year old Tesla X long. 90 grand new price..Making awful noises going back and forth..His wife was staring at it trying to figure it out. I bet it's not had an ounce of maintenance in it's life.

We get 'em, sometimes its as if their entire faith in anything electromechanical has been dashed upon the rocks of reality. *It's a car* they do seem a bit fragile even though the tech isn't especially new or complex - they're a charger-battery-inverter-motor with a few well-tried peripherals, but yet they seem to have a MTBF of ~5000 miles. Sometimes it's a peripheral issue (PTC heater) or a cable insulation breaking down, the most common issues are mixing coolant and electricity in one enclosure.

 

[Agrismith]

There are a couple of issues, firstly, the systems - both operational and diagnostic, are written by humans - often different teams, then there are the actuators and sensors - sometimes in one assembly as a closed-loop device (EGR valve for example) The sensors feed the control module, which then trigger the actuators. Each circuit is monitored so open or short circuits should be easily identifiable, the problem comes when sensor inputs are wrong, but within the plausible range. This requires a suitably skilled human to look at the live data in the specific failure mode then make a judgement as to the likely cause, rectify the cause, retest in the specific failure mode then reassess the results - sometimes further testing will be required but most diag. tech's will get to the root cause in one sitting.

I'm sure you can see from the above, where the potential problems lie, one of the best brands for 'joined up thinking' I've worked for was Volvo, they were somewhat hamstrung after Ford broke up PAG but left them with some 'residue' to clean up, the later systems benefitted greatly from one production & diagnostic team (or at least sharing of homework).

I know someone with a sprinter that won't come out of limp mode. It's 20 years old yes but very well maintained. Somewhere on the system is a sensor giving a reading to put it into limp mode. Somehow though mercedes have written the software to sense the fault and put it into limp mode, but completely neglected to include a warning through the diagnostic software, leaving nowhere to start.
I know someone with a unimog r reg and same problem. How the hell have we reached this point of idiocracy.

 

[rhubarb7]

I know someone with a sprinter that won't come out of limp mode. It's 20 years old yes but very well maintained. Somewhere on the system is a sensor giving a reading to put it into limp mode. Somehow though mercedes have written the software to sense the fault and put it into limp mode, but completely neglected to include a warning through the diagnostic software, leaving nowhere to start.
I know someone with a unimog r reg and same problem. How the hell have we reached this point of idiocracy.

That'll be a hard fault code, dealer level diagnostic software will find it.

 

[Agrismith]

But to be fair 10 years is the design life of most vehicles.. Otherwise they'd never sell any new ones...

That's why I question the reasoning in investing 4k on a 10 year old car regardless of fuel.
And why my wife has a newish car in warranty and I have a truck so old any major problems and I could sell enough parts to cover what it owes me

 

[Ubique]

Sounds easy does it not.

Then there are cars people have neglected and carried on using with faults and only bring it to garage when it finally grinds to halt and has multiple faults . Then there are cars that are mapped - had things deleted/emulated.

DPF delete's cause havoc when the German (mainly) brands get the older vehicles in to have their own emission obfuscating software removed - only to find there is an underlying issue that instantly puts the EML on, funnily enough I had to explain to a driver today that their EML came on because of some software someone had applied 19,846 miles ago - whether it was before they bought the vehicle isn't our concern and no, we can't undo the software update. That is why there is a consent form to be signed before the vehicle is taken into the workshop.

 

[premmington]

We get 'em, sometimes its as if their entire faith in anything electromechanical has been dashed upon the rocks of reality. *It's a car* they do seem a bit fragile even though the tech isn't especially new or complex - they're a charger-battery-inverter-motor with a few well-tried peripherals, but yet they seem to have a MTBF of ~5000 miles. Sometimes it's a peripheral issue (PTC heater) or a cable insulation breaking down, the most common issues are mixing coolant and electricity in one enclosure.

Or if it is BMW - no low temp coolant circulating and units in enclosures start cooking.

 

[Agrismith]

That'll be a hard fault code, dealer level diagnostic software will find it.

Both been to plug into genuine mercedes software (to old for main dealers to access but still a few independent mercedes specialist with it ) and nothing. Every thing else can be read in real time and all historic codes viewed but something has been missed when writing the diagnostic software.

 

[bricol]

Just sad when perfectly good vehicles are written off by an ECU. I would find it more comforting scrapping a vehicle that's rusted away or a large component has imploded rather than because sensor one and sensor 2 don't agree

Friend of mine asked me to look at the rear fuesbox thingie in the back of her Vauxhall Zafira.

Local garage had had it as the hatch wouldn't open. They fixed that - common problem - water leaks cause corrosion leading to melted/broken pins in connectors - a lead bypassing the whole thing usually works.
But now it wouldn't start.
They fixed that . . .
But now the boot wouldn't open . . .

I opened it with the emergency mechanical release - could not find anything actually wrong in the lock, motor, mechanism, wiring - apart from the rear fuse box thingie.

Cheaper to weigh it in and buy another car, than buy a new fuse box and have it coded to the car apparently . . . so never mind ECUs, apparently fuseboxes can do it too . . .

 

[premmington]

Both been to plug into genuine mercedes software (to old for main dealers to access but still a few independent mercedes specialist with it ) and nothing. Every thing else can be read in real time and all historic codes viewed but something has been missed when writing the diagnostic software.

Only real Manufacturer I found bad for this is Mitsubishi - and there trucks badged up Fuso - change from MUTS3 to Daz Star was awful.

You can unplug major 5v sensors and no codes are logged.

 

[Ubique]

I know someone with a sprinter that won't come out of limp mode. It's 20 years old yes but very well maintained. Somewhere on the system is a sensor giving a reading to put it into limp mode. Somehow though mercedes have written the software to sense the fault and put it into limp mode, but completely neglected to include a warning through the diagnostic software, leaving nowhere to start.
I know someone with a unimog r reg and same problem. How the hell have we reached this point of idiocracy.

That's the thing - Merc. don't write the software, if they did, the production software and diagnostic software would 'match up'. It sounds to me like one of the pressure sensors (possibly exhaust back pressure) is plausible to the ECM but has too much of an offset. Check all pressure sensor values at key on, engine off - they should all be very similar, on the mercs, 0.04kPa is too much of a difference...

 

[rhubarb7]

That's why I question the reasoning in investing 4k on a 10 year old car regardless of fuel.
And why my wife has a newish car in warranty and I have a truck so old any major problems and I could sell enough parts to cover what it owes me

Nor would I. I've never spent anywhere near that for a vehicle.

Most modern (in the last 15 years modern) are more expensive to repair..But a lot of the repairs are down to neglect.

Newest Car I ever owned was 6 years old when I bought it, and I kept it for 12 years. Was a Toyota. It was totally reliable.

 

[bricol]

Should of bought a Rover 75 (BMW build quality you know!)




Wetting myself!

In a previous life as a supplier into Rover, Honda, Toyota, Ford, and their suppliers too, the problem seemed to be with Rover quality. A good one was a good one. But the couldn't seem to build many good ones consistently. A Eover built and badged Honda just wasn't as consistently good as the Honda built and badged Honda.
Good engineers in Rover - but somewhere in production, too many people must have not been giving a stuff. A shame.

I used to use my bosses Rover 600 for long distance commutes to a facility in Germany, and even I, a full Lancia enthusiast, had to admit that it made an excellent comfortable mile muncher, better, if slower, than my Lancia.

 

[Ubique]

Both been to plug into genuine mercedes software (to old for main dealers to access but still a few independent mercedes specialist with it ) and nothing. Every thing else can be read in real time and all historic codes viewed but something has been missed when writing the diagnostic software.

DAS is still a Merc. dealer tool, as is the round plug adapter harness for the really old stuff....
I had to change a distributor cap & rotor arm a couple of months ago on something from last century, the younger (<35 year old) tech's had no idea what they were.... Or what they did.

 

[Robotstar5]

The Honda engine'd ones were very good. Rover K series lumps were ok as long as really well maintained/loved..Slight coolant leak stuffed them.

Remember the silicone tracks on the head gaskets and the dowels that allowed the cylinder head to move!! Well engineered indeed! Kept me busy

I was involved in commissioning the K series assembly line, most of the engineering was good but some was abysmal only signed off by folks who didn't understand it but enjoyed the "jollies" paid for by the suppliers. Glad I was only on it for 6 months before moving back to body-in-white before the big problems hit.

 

[Gragson]

Should of bought a Rover 75 (BMW build quality you know!)

Had a company one from new, 1.8T 52 plate, I really liked it, comfy, pretty quick, really good air con.
The AA liked it as well, 3 recoveries, then the engine (head / valves major) written off at 52k, nice car to drive tho.. bit boring on the hard shoulder.

Back on EV, nothing new but recent and worth a watch

Panorama - Electric Cars: Is It Time to Buy?

Richard Bilton takes a trip to find out what the electric vehicle revolution feels like.

www.bbc.co.uk