Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[premmington]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

Mass ownership of the ICE was largely due to affordability (Model T Ford though kicked that off some 20-years after the Daimler). Also a key difference is not just cost of an EV & its (relatively short life also) lifetime cost.... but that a buyer moving to an ICE (from what they used before) was getting a significant leap forward in real-world benefits.

Right now, in moving from an ICE to an EV - a buyer has to spend a lot more money, to gain a lot of real-world compromises & limitations instead (over what he's been using/is using).

Without the Govt tilting the playing field to hamstring the ICE i.e. whacking up RFL, steadily removing large sections of road where they can be used (ULEZ etc), thus giving the appeal/need for EV a boost (not on its own merits, but by altering the use environment to disadvantage the ICE).... then I'm sure the adoption of the EV would be much slower than it is.

Without the Govt tilting the field to offset the constraints/limitations/costs of EV versus ICE (I.e. if the EV had to compete head-to-head on cost / performance / usability etc..... then it'd be in trouble.

As it is, a lot of people in the future won't be able to afford or home-charge an EV, do their real-world option will be to not have a car at all.

"Transport poverty"

But when I was a kid - nobody in my street had a car - they all biked to work/caught the bus. I walked to the school bus stop.

Few blokes had cheap to run motorbikes - little ones...

Odd chap brought a van/truck/lorry/tractor home from work every now and again.

But vehicles bringing goods came nearly daily - wetfish van - fish and chip van - grocery van - coal lorry - milk float - bread van - butchers van - Corona pop van - brewery lorry - there was even a van selling seeds and plants sometimes - and at certain times of the year - a "haberdashery" selling meterial and kniting stuff. Thinking about it there were people selling towels/tea towels at the doorstep. Shops came to you (suppose the internet gonna do the same all these years later).

Also a holiday for us involved a train/bus if you were lucky enuf to get a holiday.

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Maybe it will go full circle - maybe you won't want/need a car with working at home on a laptop and Amazon/Deliveroo?

 

[atomant48]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

Mass ownership of the ICE was largely due to affordability (Model T Ford though kicked that off some 20-years after the Daimler). Also a key difference is not just cost of an EV & its (relatively short life also) lifetime cost.... but that a buyer moving to an ICE (from what they used before) was getting a significant leap forward in real-world benefits.

Right now, in moving from an ICE to an EV - a buyer has to spend a lot more money, to gain a lot of real-world compromises & limitations instead (over what he's been using/is using).

Without the Govt tilting the playing field to hamstring the ICE i.e. whacking up RFL, steadily removing large sections of road where they can be used (ULEZ etc), thus giving the appeal/need for EV a boost (not on its own merits, but by altering the use environment to disadvantage the ICE).... then I'm sure the adoption of the EV would be much slower than it is.

Without the Govt tilting the field to offset the constraints/limitations/costs of EV versus ICE (I.e. if the EV had to compete head-to-head on cost / performance / usability etc..... then it'd be in trouble.

As it is, a lot of people in the future won't be able to afford or home-charge an EV, do their real-world option will be to not have a car at all.

I actually agree with some of your points there - very valid.

 

[atomant48]

You logic is fine. Up to a point. And applies to most tech.

But in this case, even if the cars are 50p, it doesnt help if you cant charge it. Or charging it consumes significant chunks of your time.

I simply dont see a resolution to that. Its not about it "catching up".

All i see is those at the lower end of the income scale, without home charging, being forced out of owning a car. Given that public transport cant possibly hope to cover all the bases, thats going to have a majoe economic impact, both on them, the economy and soiciety.

Of course, other technologies that could power cars, might circumvent those issues. But, oh wait, we have effectively banned them at the outset..................

I’ve said before earlier up I acknowledge the fortunate fact that I can park on our driveway and charge. But I have friends/family that don’t and get on just fine. I’ve never on the occasions I’ve used them, had to queue at a charging station. You can put about 15 miles a minute into your battery at a decent charger …. If you do the maths on the figures quoted above about weekly journey - you are literally measuring your charge time in minutes. How many of us don’t take a break of “minutes” during the day to surf emails, this forum etc …?

But I can see the argument about “if more and more people adopted and needed public charging ….”’and I can’t disagree - the infrastructure needs to catch up / keep pace.

 

[atomant48]

You might have got away with that if you had said ”a few” or even “some” but not many.

Yea but i started with “there’s a chance” … so surely I get away with it

 

[premmington]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

Very valid point -

 

[reb78]

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

Like you, I still live in a pre-60s mentality. I still have a mortgage but thats my only debt. I dont actually know how people afford HP... even if I sold all of my current cars and used that money to fund an HP agreement on one car (and a car that I would never seem to own), I couldn't afford the monthly outgoings and final payment... This is really why an EV that can function as I need it is quite unattainable for me.

I have no need to 'keep up with the Jones' ' either... which to me seems to be what HP has driven in a lot of cases... quite happy with my lot.... I had a girlfriend once who's parents had to have the newest/biggest/best/flashest of everything and they were some of the most miserable horrible human beings on the planet... Constantly jealous of my dad who had what he wanted, was happy and owned it all...!

 

[GRW]

Me

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

The big significant change, in my lifetime, was the rise of “Hire Purchase” (HP). Before the ‘60s people needed to save to be able to buy things. HP changed all that and the ‘status symbol’ became something that you didn’t actually need to own. Ever since HP, further ways to live in debt have been invented/developed. Credit cards and, recently, leasing contracts, etc.

I can’t deny having used credit during my life (other than the mortgage), but it was always been under strict control - and everything I have now is actually mine.

Me too. I've used Credit, mortgage and a couple of small, thought-out, affordable borrowings that I wouldn't kill me if things went pear-shaped..... but the culture of "buying what you cannot afford" on the drip.... hell no.

As I said before "the only gamble worth taking - is the one you can afford to lose". Also hocking up to the eyeballs to own ANY new "consumer disposable" vehicle, with the "keep out" maintenance restrictions - is not my idea of a sensible fiscal policy.

 

[Robotstar5]

Me

Me too. I've used Credit, mortgage and a couple of small, thought-out, affordable borrowings that I wouldn't kill me if things went pear-shaped..... but the culture of "buying what you cannot afford" on the drip.... hell no.

As I said before "the only gamble worth taking - is the one you can afford to lose". Also hocking up to the eyeballs to own ANY new "consumer disposable" vehicle, with the "keep out" maintenance restrictions - is not my idea of a sensible fiscal policy.

Reminds me of when I worked for Austin Rover, I bought a new car as we got employee discount which cost £6k, as AR were doing interest free HP I paid £5k cash and had the other £1k on HP, when I read through the paperwork it said the HP company own the car until it's fully paid off, I thought this was a bit rum as I'd already paid for 80 odd percent of it myself.

 

[Maker]

Why do we "NEED" a next generation?

We don't.

Do we really need the current generation? Why don't we all just kill ourselves now and save us the bother of dying old.

 

[daleyd]

Thank god car manufacturers made all those ready made second hand vehicles previously, seeing as no one has ever bought anything new

 

[premmington]

Thank god car manufacturers made all those ready made second hand vehicles previously, seeing as no one has ever bought anything new

That is/was the retail motortrade chain - new car buyers need/needed to trade their used car in - to part fund there new car...

Then PHP came and changed it all - big finance houses now wanna sell/rent the same car several times - over and over again.

You will notice I did use the work "rent" in the above sentance...

 

[bricol]

Do we really need the current generation? Why don't we all just kill ourselves now and save us the bother of dying old.

It would certainly assist in reducing useage of the earth resources, reduce emissions of greenhouse gases etc.

Although of course, the jet fuel emission to get to Switzerland or Canada might outweigh the benefits ?

And think of the extra space on the roads to enjoy what's left of the fossil fuels? No need for expensive EVs afterall.

 

[daleyd]

That is/was the retail motortrade chain - new car buyers need/needed to trade their used car in - to part fund there new car...

Then PHP came and changed it all - big finance houses now wanna sell/rent the same car several times - over and over again.

You will notice I did use the work "rent" in the above sentance...

Irrespective of the “method” of buying them the fact is that since the invention of cars someone has been buying new ones. Secondhand cars don’t magically appear.

 

[sako243]

Although of course, the jet fuel emission to get to Switzerland or Canada might outweigh the benefits ?

Plenty of big bridges and cliffs to jump from. Just make sure you do a good job

 

[reb78]

Irrespective of the “method” of buying them the fact is that since the invention of cars someone has been buying new ones. Secondhand cars don’t magically appear.

Aren't second hand car prices currently artificially high because of a shortage of new ones...? Cost of living crisis etc... if new cars are unavailable and unaffordable then secondhand ones will be less common in a few years unless the current stock is kept on the road. Given that and the high cost of repair of much of the new stock I would wager that the second hand market will become smaller still in future years.

Work has just agreed to write off a car we bought for £5k as a pool car about six years ago. We paid £5k for it. Insurance payout was £4895.... on Monday this week. It was a crappy Mitsubishi Mirage.

 

[cheb]

Plenty of big bridges and cliffs to jump from. Just make sure you do a good job

Welding gas for the win, just pick one with no oxygen nor carbon dioxide component.

 

[daleyd]

Aren't second hand car prices currently artificially high because of a shortage of new ones...? Cost of living crisis etc... if new cars are unavailable and unaffordable then secondhand ones will be less common in a few years unless the current stock is kept on the road. Given that and the high cost of repair of much of the new stock I would wager that the second hand market will become smaller still in future years.

Work has just agreed to write off a car we bought for £5k as a pool car about six years ago. We paid £5k for it. Insurance payout was £4895.... on Monday this week. It was a crappy Mitsubishi Mirage.

Supply and demand so yes, I guess so.

That wasn’t my point though, all I seem to have read about the last few pages is that you’d have to be an idiot to buy a new car blah blah blah…. And yet without such buyers there wouldn’t be a pool of secondhand cars to buy from. As you say, the pool would in fact shrink, making secondhand cars more expensive.

 

[Maker]

Non comprendez. Please explain the significance of the CO2. The lack of oxygen to the brain tissues is the key.

Carbon dioxide makes you feel like you're suffocating. The urge to breath doesn't come from a lack of oxygen in your lungs, it comes from too much CO2. A few breaths of argon and you'll feel short of breath and pass out before you know what's happened.

 

[daleyd]

Most second hand cars come from companies/businesses that have already reclaimed as much tax rebates/ depreciation/etc or need to spend money to avoid taxation on prfits. Accountants run firms, these days

Not sure about most, certainly a good number. But private is still around 50% of the market iirc....

 

[GRW]

Irrespective of the “method” of buying them the fact is that since the invention of cars someone has been buying new ones. Secondhand cars don’t magically appear.

Up till say the turn of the 21st century, maybe as far as mid-noughties.... buying a new car made more sense to a lot of (more?) people (despite the depreciation)..... because you could expect to be investing in a car that was a genuine step better in terms of performance and reliability than its predecessor.... and a ready market for the reliable vehicle being traded-in or sold.

After that, cars in general have been built with a shorter "design life" and ever-more "hands-off, take it to your dealer & get fleeced" electronic systems - so the car offered trinkets & gadgets but no real-world benefits (more like higher costs & less value, more issues) than its predecessor.

Now, people are increasingly wary of buying a modern used car with no warranty - as the price is still hefty, but worse - the odds of "buying expensive trouble" are increasing, not decreasing.

The huge gamble of buying a used EV or PHEV just doesn't bear thinking about. The price would be strong (due to the extortionate new cost) - but a failure of battery pack, motors, electronics or inverters, can mean a huge uneconomical added cost, or mean writing off the car (& a great deal of money you can't afford).

Like I said - these new vehicle choices being forced on us (buy electric/hybrid or take the bus) will kill the used vehicle market, and make the costs of motoring much higher for anyone else who can afford to keep driving.

As @premmington says - the future is clearly heading to make the vehicle a short-term lease item, not a purchase item (again more expensive), with a rolling contract where the vehicle gets replaced every 3-years or so.

The way motoring is being steered by Govt & the Industry has sod-all to do with saving the planet, but a helluva lot to do with screwing a great deal more revenue out of each vehicle.