Havs

[Hitch]

Something a fair few of you will probably be aware of.
Hand arm vibration syndrome.

Just had a bit done on it at work. I am sure somethings not right with it.

It says the max trigger time in a day for an sds drill is 17mins
One make of grinder, about 2 hours, same sized grinder, but different make, 8hrs.

I have just looked up a few values, and a simple points system to monitor exposure.

I make the sds hammer drill (10.5m/s2) trigger time almost 2 hours max exposure time... one of the grinders, (5.5m/s2) almost 6 hours max exposure.

Anyone familiar with this stuff?

 

[wyn]

We had a bloke come round a couple of months ago and put sensors on the powered hand tools we use. I then had to operate them for a minute while he took measurements.

No info has come back for how long we can use each one for though.

Apparently he reckoned the 3/4" impact guns were pretty nasty.

I have heard of one quarry that has a special electrical thingy that connects between the tool and the power. It shuts off the power when the time for that particular tool has elapsed. It probably logs all the times etc.

So as a money saving exercise they have issued us with exercise books instead in which we write the time we have used each particular tool.

 

[Hitch]

I saw a similar thing earlier, a 110v distribution box, with timers built in

 

[wyn]

Don't know what happens when a job needs to be finished and you've run out of trigger time ....walk away and come back to it the next day ?

 

[the snooper]

iiiii kknnooww eexxaactllyy whhhaatttt yyoouu mmeeann

 

[the snooper]

some employers dont seem to care isnt it related to vibration white finger i think it was called

 

[madkayaker]

some manufactures quote a different type of vibration from others so it very hared to tell between equipment. one is a static vibration and the more useful is tri axle vibration. I have also heard of timers on kit and some kit you have a swipe card type thing to turn the power on that also allows only "competent" users of the kit

 

[Sam]

Get on with the job or retire! If you want a cushy job go sit in an office and give yourself a manicure but watch if you use the keyboard too long you may get repetitive strain injury have ye heard the freekin likes of it? we are all doomed!!

 

[tigler]

There's a few old British bikes that would cause some issues then !!

 

[Shox Dr]

A mate of mine was telling me about this last yr, he works for British Water ways, and some of the times quoted are bonkers. It will kill this country stone dead

 

[Pete.]

HAVS exposure times were halved in January this year. Well, not exactly halved but it works like this:

Up 'till January, you had EAV and ELV. EAV was exposure action value and you could use that so long as you had an assessment done yearly, which involved nothing more than havng your employees fill in a form saying if they were experiencing any effects from using the tools. ELV is exposure limit value and was usually double the time of EAV. This is the trigger-time limit for the tool per day.
From January 2010 the EAV was scrapped and all the values were moved to ELV, effectively halving the trigger-time or so for everything. There is a transition period running 'till July so people can get their stuff in line.

Our company have just bought some sensors that you velcro-strap to the machine somewhere. You input the vibration data for the machine as provided by the manufacturer and the sensor senses when the trigger is pulled (probably by a built-in accellerometer) and starts the clock ticking. Once the daily limit is reached it alarms, but doesn't turn off the machine. Of course, this doesn't account for increased exposure due to blunt chisels etc nor does it allow for working in rotation.

 

[tigler]

A mate of mine was telling me about this last yr, he works for British Water ways, and some of the times quoted are bonkers. It will kill this country stone dead

Problem is though that health and safety at work is an important issue. I know it can be taken too far , I used to run the family business so I have experience of how much it can intrude , but conversely employees need to be protected against potentially harmful issues at work. Who wants to end up with a health issue later in life because of a work task that seemed harmless enough at the time. There are other issues too , employer liability , future treatment provided by the NHS and compensation claims for problems that could have been avoided.
A work mate of mine from many years ago worked in the spray booth in a factory. The ventilation was poor and he wasn't provided with an adequate mask , sometimes even they ran out but still expected him to work. He used to cough all the time , even outside work. I warned him that it was probably the paint fumes but he said he didn't want moan incase he was sacked. That guy is now permanently disabled due to lung damage caused by breathing paint fumes. The company changed hands after he left though , so the current owners cannot be held liable , consequently his compensation is restricted to a state pay out which is pitiful. Just an example of the consequences of poor employee protection.

 

[stucktoweld]

I think we should just sit down and enjoy sangria in the sun
pack working up retire on your pension to the sun let Gordon run the country on his own
Oh Sh*t you lot in UK got plenty of ash and little cash

In reality 17mins percusion drill use a day 2 hrs max grinder your never finish a job ever will have to do VIRTUAL grinding,cleaning, welding etc good for microsoft and the rest

 

[tigler]

I think we should just sit down and enjoy sangria in the sun
pack working up retire on your pension to the sun let Gordon run the country on his own

I wish !!

 

[Drains]

retire on your pension

My what?

H&S is fair enough - a good thing most of the time - there's no excuse for not doing a job properly. But if you can only get the job done by outsourcing it to another country with less draconian H&S laws, you need to think again. It's all maaaaad!

 

[Furry Freak]

I happen to be a Chartered Safety Professional. I have been doing this for 20 years. Before that, I worked in fettling, finishing and grinding as a fettling shop manager. VWF and all the other associated conditions are life changing. They are extremely serious and debilitating. I would not want any of them myself. But have seen plenty of people with conditions brought on by long periods on power tools, die grinders, Kango hammers etc especially in cold temperatures.

BUT - this has to be taken in context. These conditions typically take some while to develop. It is all very well the labs of the HSL coming up with the figures and science that says you can have X Y and Z, but in reality humans are not that easy to apply figures to. Some of this is quite new science too.

So HAVS - very nasty, please do not mock its existence, but let's understand that it is very situation specific. I have been grinding steel all weekend and I feel fine. But I have used jigger picks in the past to the point where I couldn't hold a cup of tea without dropping it.

Frankly, if I can use a drill for 17 mins and it switches off, then I shouldn't be using it in the first place. If it's not safe for an 8 hour working day then you need a better one.

There are those out there who are trying to apply this stuff sensibly, but unfortunately, the way it is sometimes enforced leaves little room for interpretation. Not all inspectors or safety advisors are that well prepared, I am afraid but don't tar us all with the same brush. Periodic use is very different to day in and day out stuff. Just like dust. It can make you cough or it can kill you. Depends how long, what dust, how fine etc. Same with noise to a lesser degree. One big clang or a lifetime of boiler making.

FF

 

[malcolm]

A very sound post there Furry Freak.

I'm about a year out of date on all this, but a quality grinder will vibrate less than a cheap one. Quality ones (sometimes in the hundreds of pounds to buy) may have counterbalances to reduce vibration, and attention to detail in structure and handle design. Cheap manufacturers (not mentioning any countries in particular) will see leaving that sort of thing out as a cost saving. Is there a disjoin there? - we want a European manufacturing base but are only prepared to use Chinese tools?

MK - the differences in specs you mentioned might be the pro market vs DIY market specs. Pro market ones are measured in use, DIY market ones are measured just spinning under their own steam. So DIY ones can look better from the specs but actually be a lot worse if you actually use them. That's really silly but politics are in the way of standardising specs.

This stuff is an issue. Last year a couple of guys in their mid 20s lost the use of their hands for the rest of their life after using those air needle desaler things day in day out. Turns out they were using old fashioned ones. Couple of hundred quid spend and precautions and they could still have usable hands. That sort of thing happening is just stupid.

I have a friend who works in this area for HSE. Their intention is to raise awareness but he agrees a lot of their strategies are daft.

At the risk of returning to the original question, it'll all depend on make and spec. Not all tools are the same. It's likely you are using different figures from the training guy. Otherwise a different chart. I can post up what I have but it's out of date.

 

[Charred fingers]

Early last year I spent 3 days solid hacking render off a building with an SDS drill/chisel "to get the job done", at the end of it I could hardly hold the side handle in my left hand. It certainly b*ggered up the guitar playing for a while and even now my little finger doesn't always feel right, feels a little numb. I know some H&S rules are over the top but they are there for your protection lets face it the job shouldn't maim or kill you !

 

[Hitch]

The thing i cant grasp, is why the figures i have got myself differ from the ones on the sheet handed out the otherday. I will try and get a copy to compare.

The actual vibration, in m/s2.... what does that equate to, how is it worked out...?

I guess how 'hard' a vibratory movment is in one direction? That makes sense for m/s, but why squared...?

 

[malcolm]

m/s2 is just the unit for acceleration. m/s is speed. You can measure vibration in a lot of ways, but generally acceleration is used as it makes for a flatter line which is handy for comparing vibration at different frequencies. If speed were used it would always be much higher at higher frequencies no matter what the vibration actually felt like. (frequency is just the number of times the vibration goes all the way backwards and forwards every second)

Do post some figures.