Loft Storage

[Onoff]

I've a little project to consider...

2 up, 2 down 1860s terrace. I want to re-insulate the loft and put some boards down for storage. I've had a measure up done a CAD drawing.

Would have originally been a slate roof. This has been changed to concrete tiles. Celcon walls have been built to segregate the space from what would once have been a continuous loft space above all the properties.

Purlins have been added above 175x50 binders that sit in joist hangers sat in the opposing stack walls.

Distance between walls is 3100mm.

Biggest issue I see is the ceiling joists are only 75x50 nom.

Existing insulation is a bit old and scrappy. All needs bagging up and binning!

A few pics to start with:

Purlin support one end and in the middle.



Thinking purlin supports are missing this end, by the hatch.



The purlin supports come down over one dividing wall atop the 4" wall plate:





Binders in joist hangers sat in the chimney stacks.





Crap shot of the peak:



Immediate thought is to run some more 175x50 joists perpendicular to the ceiling joists. How to support each end though? Resin fix a timber into the Celcon walls and joist hangers off of that?

That would give nom 250 deep for a good chunk of insulation. Boarded area to be kept within the binders.

250-270mm insulation depth everywhere else.

As I say, storage only, not living space! This is not meant to be a loft conversion!

Quick CAD drawing:

Any thoughts appreciated!

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

Counterbatten with 2x7 using l brackets onto the joist. Nogs as required. Insulation between new joists and board.

Or use the loft leg kits. The ones from Wickes work very well.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Where's @gaz1 when you need him?

 

[mike os]

150 x 47 @400 centers between the ceiling binders, (purple bits) row of noggins between in center,
.

Use hangars, screwed rather than nailed to avoid ceiling damage g

 

[Onoff]

Counterbatten with 2x7

Do you mean run 2x7 on top of and in line with the existing 2x3,

Parallel with them but in between?

Or at 90deg to the existing joists?

 

[Onoff]

150 x 47 @400 centers between the ceiling binders, (purple bits) row of noggins between in center,

Quite like something on those lines. Could support the new 150 x 47 off the red wall plates in the middle.

Or use the loft leg kits. The ones from Wickes work very well.

Did look at those. Seemed very reasonable. I do wonder how level the tops of these existing 3x2 ceiling joists are. Guess I could shim there...

 

[mike os]

Quite like something on those lines. Could support the new 150 x 47 off the red wall plates in the middle.



Did look at those. Seemed very reasonable. I do wonder how level the tops of these existing 3x2 ceiling joists are. Guess I could shim there...

I would

 

[bs2236]

I have just done the same job here, looked at all the options - ended up going with the loft legs from wickes.

The loft access position made it difficult to get any appreciable lengths of timber up into the space (6ft max) so it would have been tedious to put counter battens in.

I must admit i thought that they would be rubbish but am actually really impressed with them, put some additional supports in a few places to act as braces where the edges of the loft boards would have been unsupported and it has worked out really well.

 

[not done it yet]

I would simply add insulation at right angles to the existing - not remove the old - but your choice. I doubt the insulation factor would be much improved unless you intend using material other than fi-glass or rock wool. The more insulation the better, but if storage space is really required it will beca compromise.

Looks like there is scope to insulate above as well as below. All insulation is good as long as condensation is avoided.

 

[Stupoty]

As I say, storage only,

Thats a funny way to spell model railway ?

 

[rtcosic]

Can you clarify your objectives?

There seems to be 2 separate but related issues:

1 Storage - do you plan to store a lot of weight up there and want to add structural support to do so? If so you will indeed need to add additional timber of dimensions to be determined by the intended load.

2 Additional insulation - if you need to add additional timber for objective 1 then just lay the insulation between the joists to the depth of the joists and add your flooring. I can see no reason to stress over the precise depth!

If you do not need additional timber because you only plan to store last year's Christmas tree, empty suitcases and 'just-in-case-I-need-to return-it' empty boxes and packaging then install loft legs - with shims were needed. Insulation can be laid within existing joists. The 'approved' way to add additional insulation is to lay it at 90 degrees to the first layer and across the joists. Loft legs are available in 175 and 300mm versions from Wickes.

 

[gaz1]

in bed asleep

its a weekend

 

[gaz1]

hold on a sec before you even attempt whats suggested



the beam below has been used to strengthen the roof and also help the ceiling

i note the roof rafters are thickish looks to be 5-6" x 2" + concrete slates

all that weight is on the 2 beams then you also have a cross support to deal with

my advice is to use a dormer build method

 

[Onoff]

hold on a sec before you even attempt whats suggested

View attachment 323778

the beam below has been used to strengthen the roof and also help the ceiling

i note the roof rafters are thickish looks to be 5-6" x 2" + concrete slates

all that weight is on the 2 beams then you also have a cross support to deal with

my advice is to use a dormer build method

Thanks. The roof rafters are 4x2 at best. One I measured is 3 1/2 x 2.

Yep, concrete tiles. Was slate originally.

Purlins are 4 X 2 1/2.

Props (hangers?) are 4 x 2

Struts are 4 x 2

 

[Onoff]

I wonder how thick those Celcon blocks are? Should have measured if possible!

 

[gaz1]

this means fitting another 2 beams and building an apex frame higher up in the roof

thats before you can fit the floor beams in place, note you can fit the floor beams after you have done the wall to wall beams

ive noted the support wall that the crossmembers fasten too as well this needs checking if it a support wall or not



as posted via another post

you will be using the attic method

View attachment 315204View attachment 315205

the red is your side loads for the roof above your purple double beams

the black line is just a straight cut across advise only do it when your support is on for the roof truss
all wood is reused again in support of the roof trusses

due to yours being a wide 7500 apex span with no proper beam support but a central purlin ( other propertys have 2 purlins or beams ) between 3750 of a single span with 5-6" rafters

size reference



Distance between walls is 3100mm

 

[gaz1]

Can you clarify your objectives?

1 Storage - do you plan to store a lot of weight up there and want to add structural support to do so? If so you will indeed need to add additional timber of dimensions to be determined by the intended load.

2 Additional insulation - if you need to add additional timber for objective 1 then just lay the insulation between the joists to the depth of the joists and add your flooring. I can see no reason to stress over the precise depth!

it reallty depends on the above and what you intend to use it for

loft storage by flooring it out with an open cold roof

or your intention is to fully insulate it out plasterboard it and floor it out

as its weight determined

what is your beam to beam measurement and what is the distance to from the beams to the cross member sat on the wall

 

[slim_boy_fat]

When insulating, leave a space directly below the cold water header tank clear, if you have one - just in case it freezes....

 

[Onoff]

"loft storage by flooring it out with an open cold roof", yep that's the idea, cold roof, just a storage platform, all the insulation underneath it. Boxed tat, chrimbo stuff, old toys etc in plastic stacking crates.

3664mm inside face to inside face of the purple 175x50 as per the drawing above.

One thought I had was to "ignore" what's there. Then resin fix angle irons to the opposing walls / stacks and run new beams perpendicular to the ceiling joists. More than au fait working / drilling the metal and gluing in studs.

The wall plate where the two diagonals meet, sits atop a brick wall that goes all the way down to the footings.

 

[gaz1]

"loft storage by flooring it out with an open cold roof", yep that's the idea, cold roof, just a storage platform, all the insulation underneath it. Boxed tat, chrimbo stuff, old toys etc in plastic stacking crates.

3664mm inside face to inside face of the purple 175x50 as per the drawing above.

One thought I had was to "ignore" what's there. Then resin fix angle irons to the opposing walls / stacks and run new beams perpendicular to the ceiling joists. More than au fait working / drilling the metal and gluing in studs.

The wall plate where the two diagonals meet, sits atop a brick wall that goes all the way down to the footings.

my suggestion now is only go from wall plate to the beam face crossing over the wall plate

it would also be the same on the other side where your new beam would go over the partition and then over the brick wall

id lift the wall plate higher by a packer therefore the support is the brick wall plate and the beam this means the roof beam is only carrying half the weight instead of full weight of a full floor span

and as there shorter you can get them beams up into your loft space beams side just fasten them with beam hangers screwed

your doing this over the brick wall