The Return Of Nuclear Power !?!

[Munkul]

It is this frightens me. When really knowledgeable people are concerned I tend to carp myself.

You still have to take what people say with a pinch of salt. The nuclear industry is such a huge and wide ranging field that even an expert doesn't know it all... And their opinions can be flavoured by their own confirmation bias.

I've seen the arguments both ways for Hinckley point C, it's easy to concentrate on the good or the bad, but from what I've read from engineering journals it seems like a good thing on balance.

The design is a significant move forward from existing reactor designs and although it's not the cheapest, once it's proven it should in theory be cheaper and cleaner to run and dismantle over its lifetime.

In theory

 

[Misterg]

Nuclear is Hobson's choice if we really want to reduce CO2 from emissions especially with the poorly thought out light transport and heating being added to grid demand. That alone means there is no chance of building sufficient nuclear generators in the time frame, even with the faster build of small modular reactors.

Unfortunately, I believe you are correct. We are starting far, far too late and risk an energy crisis brought on by both lack of investment over decades and current political decisions on electric heating and transport taken without regard for practical considerations. Boils my ****, but what can you do?

 

[reb78]

It is this frightens me. When really knowledgeable people are concerned I tend to carp myself.

The fact China is involved worries me. The quality of workmanship on most things chinese built is awful and they are creating a potential Chernobyl on our shores?!

 

[My Old Landy]

Is there much choice? Wind is not 100% reliable and wont meet the needs on a calm day, gas,oil and coal are out of the equation. Fusion looks promising but until proven fission will have to fill in, not sure if a nuclear plant can be converted to fusion or whether the whole thing is a different kettle of fish.

Bob

That I can answer, they are totally different and require a different approach. However, as in most indirect bulk power generation, it requires a steam generator to create the electricity. See we have come on in leaps and bounds, I always knew steam was the answer!

 

[daleyd]

Is there much choice? Wind is not 100% reliable and wont meet the needs on a calm day, gas,oil and coal are out of the equation. Fusion looks promising but until proven fission will have to fill in, not sure if a nuclear plant can be converted to fusion or whether the whole thing is a different kettle of fish.

Bob

It would be unlikely, the 2 things are hugely different in the way they operate, about the only thing they share is the name “nuclear” - fission is splitting apart atoms, the other is fusing atoms together under enormous temperatures/pressures. The fact that fusion is still experimental means that by the time they actually get around to producing a commercially available version (if indeed they ever can) means that even newly built fission reactors will probably be at the end of their life anyway.

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

The fact China is involved worries me. The quality of workmanship on most things chinese built is awful and they are creating a potential Chernobyl on our shores?!

That's really not true.

The quality of the cheap tat we buy yes but some fantastic engineering is both undertaken and exported from China.

 

[mike os]

Renewables are very much over hyped and cannot do what people expect them to do.

Nuclear is Hobson's choice if we really want to reduce CO2 from emissions especially with the poorly thought out light transport and heating being added to grid demand. That alone means there is no chance of building sufficient nuclear generators in the time frame, even with the faster build of small modular reactors.

This re "renewables' ... that incidently are non renewable for a large part

Nuclear is currently the uk ONLY practical, long term, high output, controlable output, co2 free, option for our ever increasing demand for high input energy requirements.. given the demand that we all have electric vehicles and electric heating (with the requirements for boilers after 2025) ....

our requirements can only go up. I'm sure the figures for heating fuel usage across the country is available and I will bet everyone a beer we currently have absolutely zero capacity to cope when even say 25% of the country get home and turn the now electric heating up, plug in the electric car and go for an electric shower.

I have said in the past the only "green" (no such thing... just moves the pollution elsewhere... in use and manufacture) solution is

Sufficient PV to run the country on a typical calm dull uk day, sufficient wind to power the country under typical uk wind patterns and sufficient nuclear to pick up the load on overcast still days and at night,.... joined up thinking and planning , so it will never happen.

I'm hopeful that tidal generation will become a real thing but given the relative lack of real progress I'm not hopeful in the short term... my which I mean in terms if power generation development.. 25 to 40 years or so ... or the lifetime of the current generation stuff.

Hydro or geo would be an option if we are prepared to go there... so we won't

 

[Kayos]

This re "renewables' ... that incidently are non renewable for a large part

Nuclear is currently the uk ONLY practical, long term, high output, controlable output, co2 free, option for our ever increasing demand for high input energy requirements.. given the demand that we all have electric vehicles and electric heating (with the requirements for boilers after 2025) ....

our requirements can only go up. I'm sure the figures for heating fuel usage across the country is available and I will bet everyone a beer we currently have absolutely zero capacity to cope when even say 25% of the country get home and turn the now electric heating up, plug in the electric car and go for an electric shower.

I have said in the past the only "green" (no such thing... just moves the pollution elsewhere... in use and manufacture) solution is

Sufficient PV to run the country on a typical calm dull uk day, sufficient wind to power the country under typical uk wind patterns and sufficient nuclear to pick up the load on overcast still days and at night,.... joined up thinking and planning , so it will never happen.

I'm hopeful that tidal generation will become a real thing but given the relative lack of real progress I'm not hopeful in the short term... my which I mean in terms if power generation development.. 25 to 40 years or so ... or the lifetime of the current generation stuff.

Hydro or geo would be an option if we are prepared to go there... so we won't

I once worked for a chap who was a prof at Hull uni, they built some model and trial tidal equipment, got the funding to go full size but it would not scale

This was a few years ago but looks like it hasn't been solved

 

[mike os]

I once worked for a chap who was a prof at Hull uni, they built some model and trial tidal equipment, got the funding to go full size but it would not scale

This was a few years ago but looks like it hasn't been solved

Yep... small scale seems to work to a degree but it seems its just too harsh an environment for current tech

 

[Munkul]

The fact China is involved worries me. The quality of workmanship on most things chinese built is awful and they are creating a potential Chernobyl on our shores?!

Chernobyl was the ultimate example of how to design a reactor on the cheap. The UK regulator would never allow that design to pass muster, and they'd never let sub par work pass either... I know companies that work in the sector as well as some of the NDT guys so I know this for a fact.
Not that Chernobyl was a particularly bad design either... It was the AK47 of nukes... Absolutely fine as long as you knew what you were doing! It was almost idiot proof... Almost... But the idiot boss in the control room found a way around...

 

[toddy]

As an insider for the UK Atomic Energy Authority
Fusion could be there if the funding was put in the right places,
JET reactor is the current biggest working reactor, later this year we are going for a big experiment that could get more energy out than in.
Iter in France is massive and just an experiment as well, no chance of getting on the grid.

The uk also has another reactor called MAST -U, this has been giving good results in the last 6 months and this will be the bases for STEP, this is planning to be the first power producing fusion plant in the world.

 

[500e]

w
Would one of the brains here like to do the figures for 90% of the cars 75% of urban lorry's 80% of domestic heating going electric add that to the existing loads,
best of luck with renewable
Then start on trunkers, coastal shipping, the internet of things, aircraft, general industry.
4/5 Hinkley C's may cover it. Not against renewable but think we are living in fairy land
Interesting read

Fusion Energy Future: A Physicist’s Visit to the Joint European Torus Fusion Reactor

Fossil fuels are running out and killing the planet. Scientists in Oxfordshire are trying to tame the power of a sun for alternative…

medium.com

 

[Mr Fro]

w
Would one of the brains here like to do the figures for 90% of the cars 75% of urban lorry's 80% of domestic heating going electric add that to the existing loads,
best of luck with renewable
Then start on trunkers, coastal shipping, the internet of things, aircraft, general industry.
4/5 Hinkley C's may cover it. Not against renewable but think we are living in fairy land
Interesting read

Fusion Energy Future: A Physicist’s Visit to the Joint European Torus Fusion Reactor

Fossil fuels are running out and killing the planet. Scientists in Oxfordshire are trying to tame the power of a sun for alternative…

medium.com

I just did my dissertation on electric vehicles vs diesel hybrid vehicles.

The long and short of it is that the UK currently produces enough electricity per year to support 100% ICE cars being replaced with EV taking in to account charger losses, grid losses etc.

The problem is that that is the average electricity generation, winter would be a problem and cold snaps such as "the beast from the east" would be disastrous. We would simply not have capacity to charge cars and support current domestic & industry demand during those events.

 

[500e]

So National Grid are incorrect saying we are may to see reduction in supply due to over load and we still have low electric car, van, lorry, home heating, +++ take up.
Renewable's are not good for sudden loads (other than some pumped water turbine) due to storage, the development of DC storage is progressing but at what cost to the environment at present
"I just did my dissertation on electric vehicles vs diesel hybrid vehicles." still not what we have at present though,.
I think there is a long long way to go + a radical re think as to how we live conduct our lives and the population increase

 

[ronan]

That's really not true.

The quality of the cheap tat we buy yes but some fantastic engineering is both undertaken and exported from China.

Do you know how many new bridges collapse a year in China, ditto buildings ? Its terrifying to think of them involved in a nuclear power plant. Corruption, backhanders, etc are rife with the Chinese, and then you have their spooks/intelligence services involved too.

 

[ronan]

We got a whopper of a leccy bill here recently, it was odd because i have not being using the lathe, mill or welding equipment at all hardly. Turns out the power company issued a statement bascially saying "Because the wind hasn't being blowing, we are charging you more", so much for wind. The sun hasn't being shining much either, bang goes solar.

All these green ideas are nice, until the rubber hits the road and it doesn't work very well.

 

[ronan]

Its called Tofu building.

 

[Morrisman]

@Ross365 i don’t know about nuclear power but the sodium coolant your on about I have worked with, a uk company I used to work for uses NaK, it was 70% potassium and 30% sodium, very good for cooling and if used right very efficient, only issue is very dangerous stuff, as I’m sure you can imagine.

I used to do work for a cooler company decades ago, making massive tube coolers for the nuclear industry. They were called GEA Airexchangers back then. Anyway, one job we did used end tanks made from solid blocks of stainless, 15’ long, 1’ wide, 3” thick, with hundreds of holes drilled to take 1” finned cooling tubes swaged in. The tubes were 40’ long, and the whole thing mounted in a frame with 8’ fans to cool it.

Months of work, probably millions of squid....... and some clown put the wrong coolant in and ate it all away...... totally scrapped.

 

[Mr Fro]

So National Grid are incorrect saying we are may to see reduction in supply due to over load and we still have low electric car, van, lorry, home heating, +++ take up.
Renewable's are not good for sudden loads (other than some pumped water turbine) due to storage, the development of DC storage is progressing but at what cost to the environment at present
"I just did my dissertation on electric vehicles vs diesel hybrid vehicles." still not what we have at present though,.
I think there is a long long way to go + a radical re think as to how we live conduct our lives and the population increase

Precisely, on average we'd be alright. Come winter when everyone sticks their heating on there's not much capacity left. The beast from the east nearly wiped us out.

If we want to be able to support mass uptake of EV we need to invest heavily in electricity generation. 2020 capacity of renewable was 298 TWh while electricity consumption was 310 TWh so to some that means we're almost green which is waaay off the actual situation.

How long does it take to design, build and commission a power station? 10 - 15 years? We've got a hell of a gap to bridge before we can seriously consider EV as a viable solution to personal transport let alone industry.

 

[ronan]

Precisely, on average we'd be alright. Come winter when everyone sticks their heating on there's not much capacity left. The beast from the east nearly wiped us out.

If we want to be able to support mass uptake of EV we need to invest heavily in electricity generation. 2020 capacity of renewable was 298 TWh while electricity consumption was 310 TWh so to some that means we're almost green which is waaay off the actual situation.

How long does it take to design, build and commission a power station? 10 - 15 years? We've got a hell of a gap to bridge before we can seriously consider EV as a viable solution to personal transport let alone industry.

Over here the government is pushing it big time, public charging points and all that, not much to back it up though, the power generation is sketchy to say the least.