Welder Training for Sizewell C

[TechnicAl]

https://www.eadt.co.uk/business/welding-centre-of-excellence-planned-for-sizewell-c-1-6912741

Do we really want people with a few months training, in a school, going on to weld a Nuclear Power Station

Cant help but wonder whats in it for "The Weldability SIF Foundation"

 

[Parm]

This sort of thing is quite common and probably linked to award of contract.

In 2010, big companies bidding for cross rail construction in London set up a tunnelling academy in Ilford. I did a fair bit of consultancy there

 

[Munkul]

The alternative is the larger welding contract companies with monstrous overheads putting stupidly large bids in...

Having said that, there are some smaller companies around here who can do coded pipework to nuclear spec and they still bid reasonable prices for steam pipework for ourselves.

Someone saw an opportunity to make a killing though... all fresh faced school leavers, train em up cheap, get the smarter ones trained on NDT and turf the duffers... Keep all QC in-house, making sure they have control of work progress...
Having said that, if its anything like Sellafield, they'll have nuke inspectors breathing down their necks every hour of every day, so opportunities for shortcuts will be few... in theory...

 

[500e]

Bit like the Hinkley A & B then

 

[hotponyshoes]

I suppose one advantage is you can train somebody up to do a specific job then set them straight at it with no time inbetween for them to pick up any bad habits or learn shortcuts.

I have a bit of experience with various types of welding but no qualifications and no idea of how to read a job sheet or work to any sort of specified standard.
Although I could put 20yrs+ welding experience on a CV, if it was my reactor and I needed a ABC type weld on a XYZ joint then I would rather use somebody who had been show how to do it and spent 3 months practicing it than try and do it myself

I expect part of the reason (if not most) is because of the financial support offered to the training organisation and the tax breaks for the employer that has created all these 'new' jobs. Not to mention the guys that get trained will be on a much lower rate than employing and experienced welder that's already qualified to do the same thing.

The longer term problem will be once the plant is finished and the welders move on into jobs welding cranes or steel frame buildings with the next employer thinking they must be the dogs because they have been welding nuclear for the last 5yrs.

 

[TechnicAl]

The alternative is the larger welding contract companies with monstrous overheads putting stupidly large bids in...

Having said that, there are some smaller companies around here who can do coded pipework to nuclear spec and they still bid reasonable prices for steam pipework for ourselves.

Someone saw an opportunity to make a killing though... all fresh faced school leavers, train em up cheap, get the smarter ones trained on NDT and turf the duffers... Keep all QC in-house, making sure they have control of work progress...
Having said that, if its anything like Sellafield, they'll have nuke inspectors breathing down their necks every hour of every day, so opportunities for shortcuts will be few... in theory...

I would have expected the alternative to be well trained, experienced, time served welders being paid a reasonable wage for doing highly critical work

When I see "lack of welders" it often translates to "lack of welders willing to accept poor pay"......seen it many times....fabricators full of imported workers....they even brought a ship to live in to the humber so they could avoid UK minimum wage.

 

[mtt.tr]

This is typical to how we are now, you only need to learn this tiny part and nothing else. We have broken all tasks into tiny little boxes and made it super simple.

Production wise its brilliant, long term we are brewing a group of tradesmen that go on to be dangerous/ rubbish as they can only do a little bit but assume confidence in more than they know.

My best example has been electrical industry loads of guys from college training rest on being told it just works, as the theory is so watered down. This is great until you try to do something different, motor related stuff often shows this up then you see its only old boys doing that work and newer guys would need yet another training course to learn that part. I could be biased I was raised by an electrical engineer.

And worst of all this is reducing people interest in furthering their knowledge, replaced by social activities because they are more fun

Sorry for the rant but we are a broken nation.

 

[Agroshield]

I suppose one advantage is you can train somebody up to do a specific job then set them straight at it with no time inbetween for them to pick up any bad habits or learn shortcuts.

+1 to that.

I think I read somewhere that when they started making Brompton bicycles, the best brazers they had for the frames were people they had trained themselves. They had no prior conceptions of how the job should have been done and were not carrying any baggage.

For specific nuclear welding, sometimes real-world experience might be a disbenefit: what they want is someone who will follow a set of instructions to the letter.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Same as a few subsea welders I know.
Companies offer to train them with the promise of "we will train you and guarantee you 3yrs work after training and then you will be able to earn £1k a day with the qualifications and 3yrs experience "
What actually happens is they train you, you are then under contract to work for them for minimum pay for 3yrs and at the end of 3yrs can't get £1k a day anywhere because the next lot of trainees are just starting on low rate contracts.

I do know a few guys that are time served and get massive daily rates but only by working as self-employed and doing the short notice/emergency repair jobs and it's often the ones that will be prepared to ignore the most rules that will get the most work.

 

[Parm]

For specific nuclear welding, sometimes real-world experience might be a disbenefit: what they want is someone who will follow a set of instructions to the letter.

Absolutely spot on !

 

[Mikes]

When Sizewell B was being constructed, a large pipe flange was dropped resulting in a score being put into its mating face. At the guidance of the on-site team it was dispatched to a local engineering firm who had a lathe large enough to turn it. The Owner with much trepidation put it in the lathe and took the absolute minimum off it to clean it up. Before it could go back to site it had to be inspected by the relevant personal. An inspector turned-up, ran his thumb nail across the face and congratulated the engineering company owner on doing a good job. It was then collected and returned to the job. The thing is that the majority of the on-site welding will be on steam and cooling water pipework which although at high pressures will be fairly standard stuff. I've worked with a guy who used to be a turbine specialist for EDF and whilst it was a very specialist job, he said that on that side of the plant, risks were managed accordingly. Whole different set of rules on the nuclear side which I suspect will be mostly prefabricated under factory conditions.
Papers are full of how the construction of Sizewell C would benefit the local economy and I suspect the welding academy is just more of the hype that goes with it. There's as much about signing-up to join their supply chain so suspect the large welding contractors will already have their names down.

 

[matt1978]

I don't know if the same logic can be applied in regard to welding up Nuclear power stations. I certainly agree I don't think anyone would be at a suitable level after a crash course in a college. All "Nuclear" means in this regard is that the welding is going to be to a very high standard. Lots and lots of Pipework of different thicknesses, diameters and in different positions. Mostly with tig but some a mix between Tig root and MMA cap and fill, But most likely all having to be 100% NDT examined to a high level of scrutiny.

Unless there is a "illegal" unscrupulous way of fudging the NDT results the people producing the welds will have to have a good level of skill and high level of consistency otherwise a lot of what they produce will fail NDT.

I can well imagine some "Aerospace" welders who sit at a bench all day long producing some simply stunning welds that look like they have been automated, but the same person may well struggle to weld up a pipe on site in less than perfect conditions. By the same token I have seen site welders who weld open Butt welds on power stations in all weathers and in all sorts of restricted positions that can pass any X-Ray but may struggle in the Aerospace industry because there welding just isn't quite "neat" enough.

 

[TechnicAl]

+1 to that.



For specific nuclear welding, sometimes real-world experience might be a disbenefit: what they want is someone who will follow a set of instructions to the letter.

Dont agree....what they want is someone who CAN follow the instructions.........Experienced welders are used to instructions in Welding Procedures....theres more instructions in Welding than any other industry.....BSI are basically funded through Welding

Theres no substitute for experience

 

[oilcooled :)]

Dont agree....what they want is someone who CAN follow the instructions.........Experienced welders are used to instructions in Welding Procedures....theres more instructions in Welding than any other industry.....BSI are basically funded through Welding

Theres no substitute for experience

and that’s not maybe, to be the best welder u have to have made the mistakes.

 

[duncans]

Dont agree....what they want is someone who CAN follow the instructions.........Experienced welders are used to instructions in Welding Procedures....theres more instructions in Welding than any other industry.....BSI are basically funded through Welding

Theres no substitute for experience

must take yrs of practice to become a coded welder and all the exams you have to pass i dont think you would get to that expertise in a few months it takes years

 

[addjunkie]

I do know a few guys that are time served and get massive daily rates but only by working as self-employed and doing the short notice/emergency repair jobs and it's often the ones that will be prepared to ignore the most rules that will get the most work.

I saw this for real by both subcontractors and managment to quote the phrase the "job needs to be done and it needs to be done asap as its costing money".

Errrr so why do we have all these procedures were supposed to follow?

Stoving on a leaking oil pipeline for a repair clamp. Pipe was still oil filled, in an excavation about 4 meters deep, in a winter mud bath.

At the end of the day welding is skill, like many others being gradually watered down by manufacturing technology, work managment and the world being run by accountants. Unions spent years trying to protect skill dilution, now they strugle to protect anything but their leadership wages. But dont want to get political.

 

[Turbo]

This is typical to how we are now, you only need to learn this tiny part and nothing else. We have broken all tasks into tiny little boxes and made it super simple.

Production wise its brilliant, long term we are brewing a group of tradesmen that go on to be dangerous/ rubbish as they can only do a little bit but assume confidence in more than they know.

My best example has been electrical industry loads of guys from college training rest on being told it just works, as the theory is so watered down. This is great until you try to do something different, motor related stuff often shows this up then you see its only old boys doing that work and newer guys would need yet another training course to learn that part. I could be biased I was raised by an electrical engineer.

And worst of all this is reducing people interest in furthering their knowledge, replaced by social activities because they are more fun

Sorry for the rant but we are a broken nation.

Saw this myself in the factory where I worked in the maintenance end. We were sent out a few 'fully qualified' electricians from the college who were great at wiring in lights & sockets but show them a motor & they were lost. We had machine wiring panels with 440v, 240v, 24v, 12v & 5v and a load of switches, contactors & relays and they had no idea how to trace a fault!

Yet there was myself & the other 'seasoned' fitters without a professional qualification to our name who could fix nearly anything, mechanical or electrical. But we needed someone on staff with an electrical qualification to cover our asses!

To be fair most of them went on to become decent mechanical & electrical fitters apart from one who was a bone idle lazy git. He ended up in the maintenance dept of our new NHS hospital, good place for him! He only got the job because his mum was the head of nursing & pulled some strings!

What I'm saying is in the long term there's no substitute for experience.

 

[Morrisman]

Saw this myself in the factory where I worked in the maintenance end. We were sent out a few 'fully qualified' electricians from the college who were great at wiring in lights & sockets but show them a motor & they were lost. We had machine wiring panels with 440v, 240v, 24v, 12v & 5v and a load of switches, contactors & relays and they had no idea how to trace a fault!

Yet there was myself & the other 'seasoned' fitters without a professional qualification to our name who could fix nearly anything, mechanical or electrical. But we needed someone on staff with an electrical qualification to cover our asses!

To be fair most of them went on to become decent mechanical & electrical fitters apart from one who was a bone idle lazy git. He ended up in the maintenance dept of our new NHS hospital, good place for him! He only got the job because his mum was the head of nursing & pulled some strings!

What I'm saying is in the long term there's no substitute for experience.

We went through this with my old company offshore 5-10 years ago, highly experienced old timers being replaced by Asian teenagers with degrees.

The idea being that every task on our back deck had a full job description, thus anybody who could read could do the job. Whether it was rebuilding a hydraulic system, deploying/retrieving the gear we towed, repairing failed fabrications, or whatever. It all had detailed lists of how to do the job. All carefully written out by us old timers, at the companies behest.

After 23 years in the oil field I was eventually replaced by a Malaysian youth, who had a degree in architecture. He was a nice enough guy, very smart, but didn’t actually know what an adjustable spanner was, or a rattle gun, as he’d never actually used any sort of hand tools before coming offshore.

Our company shut down two years ago......

 

[8ob]

Probably tactical and strategic by Sizewell , training up one trick welders that couldn’t get a job anywhere else in the industry is probably a smart move.Hitholes like Sizewell are big into H&S, probably got separate courses and ticketed operatives to use hammers,chisels,chipping hammers,welding rod passing and grinders.
Imagine the shock they would get if they ended up in my place after working there, laying in a puddle with a stick welder under a broken down machine in the middle of nowhere, that would be a shock to the system.

Bob

 

[MetalMonkey]

These things are usually a sop to local councillors and politicians to grease the wheels of a new project, especially controversial ones - local job opportunities for local people, just don't rock the boat.
Probably find they ship in a load of French welders to do the work anyway.