Bit of help with a Bosch VE injection pump.

[KemppiFrog]

Hi all
My venerable Espace has developed a problem. Happened from one day to the next. Starts, but idles with the accelerator pedal having no effect. So I engage first gear and get moving, change to second and when it is going a bit faster, drop to first, when it revs to over 1000 rpm and responds to the accelerator. Not too bad if around open roads, but a pig in traffic, as I have to heel and toe to keep the revs over 1000.
Now I know how the pump works and have looked at some vids on Utube about stripping the unit. BUT, does anybody have an idea of what might be the cause? Natch, one hopes for a bust spring, or some other minor bit.

Engine is the 2.1 Turbo diesel with 'old tech' pump and injectors from '96. Now banned from central Paris as too sniffy.
KF

 

[Mee]

Could be the power head in the pump, they are prone if you have high water content, debris in the fuel, or corroded fuel lines.

The VE is electronically controlled and fitted to several marques and the first place to start is the throttle potentiometer, check this and its wiring to the pump.

Next check the speed sensors in the pump, followed by the diesel shut off valve to ensure its not sticking or its magnetic field is getting weak.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Thanks Mee, but this is entirely mechanical, except for the shut off valve. Since it was quite sudden, I expect it was something in the bits between the govenor and the throttle.

 

[octo0072000]

Thanks Mee, but this is entirely mechanical, except for the shut off valve. Since it was quite sudden, I expect it was something in the bits between the govenor and the throttle.

have you changed the fuel filter lately not got some sort of blockage in the fuel pipes the old bodge on pajeros when front seal was drawing air was to add an electric low pressure pump 4 to 7 psi carb type pump

 

[Mee]

Many variants of this pump, unfortunately most were electronically controlled.

I would suggest drawing air at some point, a blocked fuel filter, or something silly such as a perforated fuel pick up pipe, or if it has a filter on the end of the fuel pick up pipe it may have deteriorated and acting as a flap valve over the end of the pipe.

 

[KemppiFrog]

First thing I did was change the fuel filter, no difference. I will do a flow test. There are a couple of clear plastic sections in the fuel tubing by the pump, no signs of air passing in them.
octo, Think a mate has one of those pumps spare off a boat, worth a try. Once it gets past 1000rpm, it goes OK and starts first turn, so I'm a bit puzzled. Getting it off means quite a lot of dismantling of the front end. Trying to put that off
KF

 

[HughF]

Transfer pump failure resulting in low/no internal pump pressure... my two pence is on it being that.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Thanks for your two pence Hugh. So, the fuel pressure is too low to accelerate, but once it turns a bit faster, it raises the pressure enough to supply the high pressure section? If that is the case, then stripping it is probably not worth it. The local scrappy has one at €150. Not cheap by UK prices, but fixing the current one sounds more, if you are correct. Octo's idea might overcome it on a temp basis, for not much effort, as well as proving the point. Bit busy at the mo' and don't want to take it off the road, plus finding parts is a prob here.
KF

 

[HughF]

To be honest, they're not hard to strip and rebuild. I'd just buy a kit and have at it...

 

[HughF]

Many variants of this pump, unfortunately most were electronically controlled.

Yes, many variants. Most were not however electronically controlled. You're thinking of the vp37 - same pumping head, analogue pwm governor. Not to be confused with the vp30, axial piston, digital control, metering solenoid pump.

 

[8ob]

Its not hard to get the top off in position, I have changed throttle spindle seals on these pumps and although a bit of a fiddle its doable. It may well be a broken spring as you originally thought , if its the same 2.1 as fitted longitudinally in the old Savana the pump sits quite on the engine without too much clutter in the way.

Bob

 

[KemppiFrog]

8ob, Yes it it accessable and I had thought of pulling the top off. Still a problem if parts needed, but at least solves/éliminâtes the 'bust spring' simple idea

 

[octo0072000]

original espace engine in front of transaxle fibre glass panels etc or later normal FWD set up
scratch that it's 96 so normal FWD set up one go with the extra electric pump first

according to this listing yours should have an electric lift pump on anyway
sounds like it's failed see listing

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-Espace-MK2-2-1-TD-Genuine-Delphi-Fuel-Pump-/291805354557?fits=Car+Make:Renault|Model:Espace|Cars+Year:1996&hash=item43f0f45a3d:g:1e8AAOSwV0RXth0z

 

[KemppiFrog]

Thanks for that, but it is the last of the 'phase three' fore and aft types and there is no mention of a lift pump in the Haynes manual.

 

[octo0072000]

do not believe the haynes book of lies

for 95 2.1 d espace still shows one of these as a lift pump
might be at the tank end of the car

this shape

or this one

 

[normspanners]

Transfer pump failure resulting in low/no internal pump pressure... my two pence is on it being that.

Mine too
But what you can do is fit an electric pump I use a facet red top they are usually enough to supply enough pressure I have done it on several rotory pumps when the pump cant suck up enough the pump supplys about 8-9psi and they run fine after http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/301671569882?chn=ps&adgroupid=39613511478&rlsatarget=aud-292456216308la-279348994258&abcId=923836&adtype=pla&merchantid=7316024&poi=&googleloc=9045255&device=c&campaignid=737386489&crdt=0 doesnt HAVE to be one of these but they do work, I have done it to about 4/5 different vehicles, the good thing is they have a fine filter in them pre pump so no large pieces get into the pump, BUT need to go as close to the tank as poss, pre filter, they are pushers not suckers.

 

[octo0072000]

Mine too
But what you can do is fit an electric pump I use a facet red top they are usually enough to supply enough pressure I have done it on several rotory pumps when the pump cant suck up enough the pump supplys about 8-9psi and they run fine after http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/301671569882?chn=ps&adgroupid=39613511478&rlsatarget=aud-292456216308la-279348994258&abcId=923836&adtype=pla&merchantid=7316024&poi=&googleloc=9045255&device=c&campaignid=737386489&crdt=0 doesnt HAVE to be one of these but they do work, I have done it to about 4/5 different vehicles, the good thing is they have a fine filter in them pre pump so no large pieces get into the pump, BUT need to go as close to the tank as poss, pre filter, they are pushers not suckers.

already said this

 

[KemppiFrog]

Thanks again octo & norm

It is the red one in the second pic and I am pretty sure there is no pump, so fitting one will now be my first try. (Will check now to see if there is a pump, but no wizzy sounds or clicking when turning on the ignition).
KF

 

[normspanners]

The only thing with the red top they are a pulse pump and can be noisy if mounted straight to the body you can mount them on two mini exhaust rubbers, to insulate them.
iveco 2003/6ish 49 10 2.3?? use a rotory pump for the same thing but mounted on chassis quieter but has no filter it is not a high pressure pump that is the only thing with using a petrtol injection type pump there is not always a built in reg and the pressure will go to 100's psi.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Just to update this and give a bit of feedback to those who posted ideas.
I fitted a Red Top type booster pump and it made no difference. Came with rubber mts, so no real noise, unless one listened hard. Wound the idle speed up to 1800 to keep it in the usable range after I had bumpted it passed the idle. Not fun to drive in traffic, but useable.
Anyway, after viewing a few rough looking pumps, I bought one off a wrecked Safrane. (Destined for Africa, so Sorry if I disadvantaged anybody out there..) Fitting was not too difficult, after I pulled the rads out (aircon one I dumped) New timing belt and all the other ones too.
Ai Caramba! Drove like a new one with much better power and smoother drive.
So, I now wonder if it was not some minor spring or other component, but terminal wear in the high pressure side of things? When I have a spare moment (Hah!) I will strip the old one and try and figure it out. Purely in the interest of science.....
Thanks all,
KF