Running 3.2s on under 100A

[scarecrow]

You may well be right. I also just came across the following forum:

http://forum.landrovernet.com/archive/index.php/t-84977.html

At the above forum, someone asked "which rods you prefer and why."

One response said: "Typically Truweld 6013 3.2mm rods using 180A inverter arc machine. ~80A works just fine."

he was using an Fusion inverter not exactly a basement machine

(as this seems to be turning into a cheap verses expense tread again)
my advice to anybody buying a welder. is take a look at the buying a welder page on the forum is clearly obvious which ones are rubbish by the amount of posts they have with the word problem in it

when what we wanted to know was if you could burn a 3.2 rod with a 100amp welder

Drains prove that it can be done but you only have had to take a look at the weld to know that it shouldn't be done that way if that's what it looks like after a competent welder what chance has a DIYer got

 

[Drains]

I used to have one of these little Esab buzz boxes.I say "used to" as Drain`s pic has brought it to mind that I`ve not seen it in a long,long time.

I haven't got yours have I Mark? Did it end up in an attic in Pilton, that's where I got mine. A tenner. Cracking buy, and I put a fan on the thing and doubled the duty cycle. Never use it now as I've an inverter for ladders. Mind you that Esab's bloody heavy - 13kg if it's a gram! Not exactly a handbag welder.

 

[GeorgeB]

As I mentioned more than once, for the sort of applications mentioned here, its not always critical to adhere to the rules

Yes, there's a big difference between many amateur projects and, at the other extreme, the welding of the turbine for a Jumbo jet engine, like we saw on a recent TV program. I would NEVER offer an opinion on how to do professional jobs like those. How would I know? On the other hand, I'd also be hesitant about welding together a trailer for use behind a car on the road, or the chassis of a car. At the very least, I'd want the welding checked out by an expert before I used them. So I suggest I'm actually more risk averse than many people here.

As for welding brackets on a hanging basket, that's the type of drip-drip criticism aimed at low cost equipment, which tends to push people toward paying more than perhaps they need to. Those small welding machines are capable of doing a lot more than that, given a bit of practice.

 

[gridley51]

There must have been a sale of these things in Leith at one time.Mine came from the Victoria Rubber when it closed,which is only a few yards from where Drains "says" he got his.
I suppose the little Esabs are heavy but I was young then.Twenty five years down the road I`m probably carrying a few Esab`s extra weight and don`t sprint up ladders anymore.
I put a fan on a SIP180 once and then they started producing them with one built in.
Mark.

 

[Drains]

Scarcrow - re your question of what it would look like if it were done properly, I considered demonstrating a proper weld, but TBH it would just be a bit of valueless (to everyone else) w@nking on my part. Trouble is, the specification for the original was 3.2 @ 100A. I chose 3mm steel as I figured that would make it possible. If I were to do it properly, what would I change? The Rod size, the amps, or the material (and the prep)? I'd probably have to change two of the three to do a proper job, so it would just be pointless.

Although I get what you're saying.

 

[matt1978]

As for welding brackets on a hanging basket, that's the type of drip-drip criticism aimed at low cost equipment, which tends to push people toward paying more than perhaps they need to. Those small welding machines are capable of doing a lot more than that, given a bit of practice.

I am sure people only pay what they feel comfortable with and more importantly what they can afford.

In my experience and certainly not limited to welding, most people want to buy the best they can afford especially if that 'somthing' will make there lives easier when carrying out a task.

I am intreagued George, with all this money you save, with your hobby, what do you actually spend and indulge on? Serious question BTW

 

[scarecrow]

Scarcrow - re your question of what it would look like if it were done properly, I considered demonstrating a proper weld, but TBH it would just be a bit of valueless (to everyone else) w@nking on my part. Trouble is, the specification for the original was 3.2 @ 100A. I chose 3mm steel as I figured that would make it possible. If I were to do it properly, what would I change? The Rod size, the amps, or the material (and the prep)? I'd probably have to change two of the three to do a proper job, so it would just be pointless.
Although I get what you're saying.

your probably right i just don't like the idea of somebody recommending that you can burn 3.2s at 80 to 100 amp with 100amp machine and make successful welds. when it is a good range for 2.5s
it is just sheer lunacy to think that a small welder can do the work of a bigger one

 

[Drains]

I don't think tbh it was a recommendation, more a suggestion of a possibility if nowt else were available. Let's say that such a combination of rod and amp would be a last resort, perhaps. And we should probably leave it at that...

 

[GeorgeB]

your probably right i just don't like the idea of somebody recommending that you can burn 3.2s at 80 to 100 amp with 100amp machine and make successful welds. when it is a good range for 2.5s
it is just sheer lunacy to think that a small welder can do the work of a bigger one

As I think Drains has said, you are taking the argument further than was ever intended. I also still believe that 80A on a small 100A welder will produce results very similar to 80A on a 250A welder, other factors equal, so it's not 'sheer lunacy' at all.

 

[mrcharly]

Following my query about current and voltage, I believe that 80A from a 250A welder will be working with a different voltage to 80A from a 100A welder.

That's going to alter the results.

 

[Drains]

Following my query about current and voltage, I believe that 80A from a 250A welder will be working with a different voltage to 80A from a 100A welder.

That's going to alter the results.

Not necessarily. 80 amps is 80 amps. That's it. The question is whether it's really 80 amps, or an optimistic assertion.
Voltage is a different issue, whether it's OCV, which is used to start the arc, and is based on the design of the set, not the size; or the running voltage which is dictated largely by the flux coating of the rod.

High voltage sets are designed to run cellulosic and lo-hy rods, amongst others.

 

[shenion]

The voltages is the same. Given the same arc length and current setting, the voltage will be the same.

The difference will be in heat vs arc length and the OCV. The small 100A buzz box will likely have a low OCV. That makes the arc harder to maintain.

The cheapie I had would drop the arc often if you did not keep a very short arc length. My Airco will maintain an arc over an inch as you draw it away.

 

[PTvor]

Going back to the original question, a lot has to depend on the rods, not all 6013s being the same and some makers offering a couple of variants. The current ranges on the maker's packets are not all the same either.

I saw a comment on some DIY shed 3.2 mm rods (probably J422s, not strictly 6013s) saying that they were just about OK if the current was wound up to 140A.

 

[brightspark]

has anyone got a cheap ark welder who is prepaired to run a few welds at varous amps and size rods weve seen the decent welders at low amperage . how about a cheap welder round about the 90 to a 100 amp mark

 

[GeorgeB]

has anyone got a cheap ark welder who is prepaired to run a few welds at varous amps and size rods weve seen the decent welders at low amperage . how about a cheap welder round about the 90 to a 100 amp mark

I dismantled my 100A Silverline arc welder to turn it into a spot welder, so I can't use that.

My Wolf Arc welder is rated about 130A but the guys at the weld-off seemed to doubt it was producing anywhere near 130A, so will that count? I have a clamp meter, so I could turn it down (tune it) to 100A perhaps.

I don't have any 'superior grade' rods; only Aldi rods.

 

[brightspark]

I dismantled my 100A Silverline arc welder to turn it into a spot welder, so I can't use that.

My Wolf Arc welder is rated about 130A but the guys at the weld-off seemed to doubt it was producing anywhere near 130A, so will that count? I have a clamp meter, so I could turn it down (tune it) to 100A perhaps.

I don't have any 'superior grade' rods; only Aldi rods.

hi george
if u have a clamp meter u will be able to see what amps the welder is pulling wether it be 90 or 130 amps while u are welding if u set the machine at 120 amp juat as given figure irespective of the rod size 2.5mm or 3.2mm the amperage output stays the same

 

[shenion]

You will find on the low end machines, the current will also vary by the rod size.

 

[GeorgeB]

hi george
if u have a clamp meter u will be able to see what amps the welder is pulling wether it be 90 or 130 amps while u are welding if u set the machine at 120 amp juat as given figure irespective of the rod size 2.5mm or 3.2mm the amperage output stays the same

To get a meaningful amperage reading with the clamp meter, is it essential to read it whilst mid-way through an arc weld, or can I short out the rod to earth for a second (like when the rod sticks) and see how many amps it registers?

 

[shenion]

You will need to read while welding. The current will be much higher with the rod shorted.

 

[syborg]

well the way i look at it is...

if your only doing hobby stuff then any decent welding will do the job.

but it becomes and issue if doing coded work or specific load bearing joints.

im no pro welder by a long way but im sure there are stringent conditions for such manufacturing.

specially in gas pipe work or high pressure receivers.

i shall continued to use my ltlle 100amp hobby wleder and my cheap buzz box until my needs change.

peace

syborg