More paint issues - properly hate cellulose!

  1. N2ae86 Member

    Posts: 108
    Bristol, Uk
    Chaps,

    After a lengthy strip down, masking up and prep session I attempted to spray the body of my car, and the car doors.

    The result was a complete fail – it’s left me a broken man.

    I knew painting my car would take effort but this has turned into an epic saga of paint reactions after paint reactions. I HATE cellulose!

    As soon as the paint hit the body I started to get reactions in the paint, which looks like fish eyes or water in the paint. How this is happening I don’t know.

    I used an airline that’s only ever been used for painting.
    A water / oil trap.
    The spray gun was stripped completely and cleaned thoroughly and then put back together.
    I tried a different airline.
    I tried a different water / oil trap
    I tried a new can of thinners.
    I tried a different spray gun.

    The body was prepped to within an inch of its life, I scotched like crazy, I cleaned like mad, I tacked it to death, I degreased multiple times.

    I lay down a light dust coat to start with an instantly the paint starts to react, further coats and it just gets worse and worse. The car roof looks dimpled (I stopped there) and the car doors reacted really badly – even on areas that were primed (so it’s not just the original paint surface).

    I am totally stumped with this. I can only assume that there is something wrong with the paint? I did the door shuts with the old tin of paint I had to finish it off and they came out fine. The new tin has just gone reaction crazy! Is it possible for the paint to be duff?


    Really miffed that I have put a billion man hours into this paint job so far and been hyper fussy and its not paid me back. My mate on the other hand painted 5 cars in a weekend and with a team of 20 enthusiastic mates, they quickly scotched, wiped down and painted them all and they have come out great and they didn’t pay half the attention I paid to the prep.

    Difference being they used some military style paint which evidently is pretty inert and doesn’t react to anything – unlike Cellulose which will react with as much as a stern glare or some harsh language.


    Does anyone have any suggestions what’s going on to get these reactions? I am probably just going to get some stick to anything military paint and use that instead, using Cellulose is an exercise in wasted time.

    Cheers

    James
  2. pedrobedro

    pedrobedro Man at Matalan

    Had you had a burger and did you wash your hands before rubbing down ? It sounds like fish eyes and can be a result of wax or grease or even silicone if you've been using a lubricant aerosol in the vicinity.
  3. ajlelectronics

    ajlelectronics Member

    Can we see an example of the problem. It is either a reaction or contamination, but difficult to speculate. Cellulose has been used for decades with great success, so it is something in your environment that is wrong, not the technology.
  4. Chipper hammer-based life form

    Posts: 1,552
    Cambridge
    What type of paint is the celly going onto? Is it celly or something else.
  5. N2ae86 Member

    Posts: 108
    Bristol, Uk
    I was always using clean gloves, when working on the car, In the 18 hours spent faffing around with this paint I only had a yogurt! The spray area was separated off from the rest of the workshop and no one had been using any spray oils etc.

    Will try and get a photo. I know cellulose has been used for decade but it seems so fickle its unreal, even with meticulous prep something still went wrong. In comparison to other paints its pretty crap – as mentioned having seen a bunch of mates roughly prep and paint 5 cars in a weekend with great paint finishes it’s a bit of a joke that you can invest serious hours into a cellulose paint job only for it to go to crap due to a reaction, that other paints wouldn’t even notice.

    The reason why I think something has contaminated the paint is because the old tin I had (only a small amount left) was used to do the door shuts and went on fine without reaction. The new tin was the one that reacted. Nothing else had changed.

    Sadly no idea, it has been pained before, but I couldn’t tell you what with – possibly cellulose as a test wipe with thinners lifted some of the original paint.
  6. Chickenjohn

    Chickenjohn Morris Minor and Porsche 944 fan

    Posts: 1,279
    East Kent
    You did something wrong in the prep or got contamination on your panels. I and many others have used cellulose for years with great success. 2-pack can be much more troublesome.

    The only paint problems I have ever had with celly was due to once a contaminated panel and another time, old synthetic paint.

    Best to strip old paint down to bare metal on a car paint job. then sand, clean, etch prime etc.
  7. slim_boy_fat

    slim_boy_fat Member

    Any dampness/moisture in the air? :confused:
  8. Chipper hammer-based life form

    Posts: 1,552
    Cambridge
    The tin that went on OK - was it also celly and did it go onto the exact same base as the stuff that reacted?
  9. N2ae86 Member

    Posts: 108
    Bristol, Uk
    Can’t think what I have done wrong, I followed the same process and used the same tools as before which resulted in perfectly acceptable results. In fact I was fussier this time around just simply down to the amount of prep that was required to prepare the whole body – as apposed to a bonnet or wing.

    I know you probably speak from experience but I cant see how 2k is more troublesome – the 2 cars I have seen done with 2k, 1 was patch repairs, done with minimal prep and in a dirty barn came out like glass, and another car that was sprayed on a drive, with minimal prep came out brilliantly. To me Cellulose just seems to react to all sorts where as something like 2k is pretty inert.

    The workshop I sprayed my car in sits alongside a body shop and chatting to the sprayer he said I was nuts to use cellulose, for the very reason it reacts with everything. He even offered to give me some 2k to replace it, but as I didn’t have access to a suitable mask I declined.

    After the epic effort and favours I pulled to get it this far that isn’t going to happen. I really cant be bothered with it any more, just going to get some sticky, reaction free paint and use that.

    [quote ]Any dampness/moisture in the air?[/quote]

    Was a nice warm day, and pretty dry! No different to the other days I have painted. I have even painted on a rainy day in a damp garage and the paint came out fine before.

    Yep, it was Celly from the same place and the same colour. Went onto the door shuts that were prepared in the same was as the rest of the car. The base was a mixture of patches of primer and the original paint.
  10. danelectro

    danelectro Member

    Posts: 398
    Norfolk
    From what you've said (and assuming the reaction is ALL OVER the car) I reckon you've put cellulose onto Synthetic, which would really cause you big problems. Have you got any pics you can show us???

    I'd hate to think of you giving up, don't lose heart, get us some pics, and collectively we'll come up with a solution.

    You will over come!!!!
  11. squizzel

    squizzel Member

    Just a thought and i may be way off here but earlier in post No 5 you mentioned that you always used clean gloves. They wouldnt happen to be rubber gloves would they as some have a silicone type residue on them from when they are produced.
    As i said i may be way off but its worth thinking about.
    Mark
  12. mike os

    mike os just a little insane.....

    Posts: 3,430
    North Wales
    deffo sounds like a contamination/incompatibility issue

    celly is easy to spray ime....( only been using it since about 1976:D.. only part time tho;)),,

    a really silly question...

    I assume you are using the correct PAINT thinners and that it is not contaminated ( ie not cheap crap or gunwash) although I dont think it is the problem)

    you have 2 batches of paint and I think they may be different bases?

    sounds more like oil/silicone contamination ( water droplets would be obvious in the can and I would expect some blooming if atomised with the paint)

    also if it is water in the line or oil/silicone you will have the same problems with any paint.

    drained the compressor?

    air tools for prep?
    blowing off before you spray?
  13. jaykay Member

    there nothing wrong with cellulose paints.i would say you have comtamination for sure.
    turtle wax polish is a great contaminator.ever after stripping to metal it can show fish eye.
    i dont think there is much between gravity or suction. more the sprayer.
  14. Chickenjohn

    Chickenjohn Morris Minor and Porsche 944 fan

    Posts: 1,279
    East Kent
    For that reason, I don't use turtle wax or any "sillicone" waxes any more. I just use pure carnauba wax. This panel wipes off fine and does not seem to cause any fish eye problems.
  15. the snooper

    the snooper old school demolished

    Posts: 8,901
    EARTH UK
    got to be silicone ive seen paint sit on grease when people have sprayed engine bays badly so grease doesnt cause that problem .
    when you degreased the panels it could have been the cloths used.
    your best bet is to wet flat the panels with a good dose of washing up liquid to try and get rid of the contamination then rinse .
    if silicone is present no matter what paint is used it will react
  16. N2ae86 Member

    Posts: 108
    Bristol, Uk
    I used the special latex ones the paint shop sold, used them previously on past painting efforts and haven’t had an issue, so pretty certain it’s not due to that.

    Yep Anti Bloom thinners – brand new tin.

    So possibly a paint shop mix up? I gave them the code and asked for them to mix me up a litre – to match what they made for me previously.

    The airline I used has only ever been used for spraying. I have never run any air tools off it as its set aside for spraying duties.

    Yep, and running a water / oil trap.

    No all manual work.

    I did dust the car off with the airline, but again this was on the paint airline (with trap) and I did the same to the insides of the doors when I sprayed those and they came out fine – so it cant be that

    I think I have waxed my car about 3 times in the 4 years of owning it and have never owned a tin of turd’le wax. It’s a track car and as the paint was pretty shitty before it hardly seemed worth the effort polishing it.

    Yes I may have screwed it up, but when I didn’t do anything different to the other panels which I have painted, which came out fine I am slightly stumped that the body and doors went to crap – even though the doors shuts I painted with the left over paint came out really nicely and to my surprise I got an awesome orange peel free finish.

    From my experiences Cellulose is a complete twat and has done nothing but react like mad at the slightest thing. I maybe a novice but I have done everything by the book and been exceptionally fussy with the prep and it hasn’t paid me back.

    I have invested serious hours in this paint job, neglected the woman, annoyed my neighbours, subsequently fallen out with my neighbours, spent good money on paint and consumables, not been able to drive my car for ages and missed track days and for what … I have a car that looks shitter than it did before, I am probably £400 down and lost epic man hours to this venture!

    I am so thoroughly bummed out about this paint job I can’t even think about it at the moment – one to put down to experience and all that – money and months lost for nothing.
  17. Chickenjohn

    Chickenjohn Morris Minor and Porsche 944 fan

    Posts: 1,279
    East Kent
    Cellulose is great paint and easier/ more forgving for the amateur to spray.

    I'm wondering if they made up your second can as a can of 2-pack acrylic, by mistake. Hence the first (real cellulose) can went on very well and the second can which is actually 2-K!!! went on badly with the anti bloom thinners and no hardner!

    BTW, shouldn't really need anti bloom thinners in July.
  18. malcolm

    malcolm Administrator Staff Member

    Posts: 8,219
    Bedford UK
    A picture would be really useful. Is it like the last photo on this page? http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/paint-faults.htm

    I feel your pain - that photo was the final coat and believed to be silicone contamination. I gave up and had the car finished by someone else who didn't do a great job. That's 2K by the way - I find cellulose less susceptible.

    I think the cause in my case was fibreglass dust. Any WD40 spraying in the area, oils knocking around, silicone sealants can cause similar. Even deodorant you sprayed on in the morning.

    If it's little bubbles rather than pits it's something else.
  19. jaykay Member

    spray wd40 in to the air,and it will shut a paint shop for a few days.
    once had a citreon to spray.took it back to bare metal.then had to wash it with hot water and soap for 2 days,to clear silicone.
  20. the snooper

    the snooper old school demolished

    Posts: 8,901
    EARTH UK
    dont know if your 2 sentences are related but wd40 doesnt contain silicone
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