A lot of roll cages come unwelded form purely because they can not be fitted assembled into the car. they need to be welded up inside the car. In some cases the roof panel needs removed to do the welding. On another note I would look into the rules because as far as I can recall there has to be no signs of grinding This might cause a problem in this case.
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chevy2
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Most of the cages i do are for classes of drag racing,
Cant comment on other sanctioning bodies but in the above the scrutineering consists of a combination of tube layout and minimum diameters and wall thickness for each layed out tube,
As far as welding goes the scrutineers hands are tied in relation to judging the weld quality,
only that Tig must be used on 4130 tube and in certain areas where joints cant be accessed to fully weld then suitable tube or flat plate gussets must be added, and yes even these sizes are in the specification,
Hot tip, if you're gonna build a cage for a specified class, read the rule book and build as stated as the scrutineers won't lose sleep by asking you to do it again.
Cant comment on other sanctioning bodies but in the above the scrutineering consists of a combination of tube layout and minimum diameters and wall thickness for each layed out tube,
As far as welding goes the scrutineers hands are tied in relation to judging the weld quality,
only that Tig must be used on 4130 tube and in certain areas where joints cant be accessed to fully weld then suitable tube or flat plate gussets must be added, and yes even these sizes are in the specification,
Hot tip, if you're gonna build a cage for a specified class, read the rule book and build as stated as the scrutineers won't lose sleep by asking you to do it again.
windingroads
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Its a one off small job, I would not do it, because if anything were to happen Insurance companies will
spend a fortune to land the blame on you, and when they succeed they will take you to the cleaners
for expenses, you will loose everything and it won't be enough to square up the bill.
Only my opinion, if you got paid a 100,000 for the job, and something goes wrong, your insurance will throw you under
the bus before they will pay up, and your 100.000 won't go far on their lawers, expenses, doctors and
other expert reports, the injured party's representatives will do the same to you, there will be no one in your corner.
Even you got a disclaimer signed, anyone can change their mind and still sue you, for example the injured party's insurance company won't pay, which is all well and good, except for the fact you will need a lawer or barrister, and will spend many days in court,
that costs you money, serious money, you don't have to be found guilty to loose everything.
Regards, john
spend a fortune to land the blame on you, and when they succeed they will take you to the cleaners
for expenses, you will loose everything and it won't be enough to square up the bill.
Only my opinion, if you got paid a 100,000 for the job, and something goes wrong, your insurance will throw you under
the bus before they will pay up, and your 100.000 won't go far on their lawers, expenses, doctors and
other expert reports, the injured party's representatives will do the same to you, there will be no one in your corner.
Even you got a disclaimer signed, anyone can change their mind and still sue you, for example the injured party's insurance company won't pay, which is all well and good, except for the fact you will need a lawer or barrister, and will spend many days in court,
that costs you money, serious money, you don't have to be found guilty to loose everything.
Regards, john
whm_fab
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i was doing a search on this, and came across this interesting thread so thought id bump it up 3 years on 
reason being, I've been getting quite a few enquiries lately regarding this, and its something i have an interest in and enjoy doing.
I've build FIA specified cages for my own competition cars over the years, and a few others for associates etc, and admittedy from the outset, il say i didnt really consider this much until reading some of the comments.
but, to throw a different light on it, rather than just think the worst - these would be my points.
- I was a coded welder, in stainless and aluminium tube and sheet, all positions etc. but i let it lapse a number of years ago as it was expensive, and i dont weld 'professionally' 9-5 monday to friday.
- without wanting to sound obnoxious or blowing my own horn, i am extremely confident in the fact i know full well i can construct, and most importantly weld a cage with either TIG or MIG that will more than exceed any structural test requirement.
So, for example lets give a scenario:
I make a roll cage for, say a stage rally car or race car etc where no normal cage is available. the cage is made from the correct spec tube as per regs, designed correctly and welded perfectly
Unftunately, some freak accident happens and the driver is badly hurt for example, say they hit something that no cage would withstand - it rolls onto its roof and slides into a big rock or something along those lines.
Before we jump down the welders neck with all sort of litigation horror stories, surely, its up to someone to prove beyond all resonable doubt that the specific weld at a certain point of the cage has failed causing this accident? which i think is a pretty tall ask?
what about the guy who installed the brakes?
what about the steering system?
were the tyres an issue?
you see where im going .. has anyone heard of a case where this has actually happened ?
reason being, I've been getting quite a few enquiries lately regarding this, and its something i have an interest in and enjoy doing.
I've build FIA specified cages for my own competition cars over the years, and a few others for associates etc, and admittedy from the outset, il say i didnt really consider this much until reading some of the comments.
but, to throw a different light on it, rather than just think the worst - these would be my points.
- I was a coded welder, in stainless and aluminium tube and sheet, all positions etc. but i let it lapse a number of years ago as it was expensive, and i dont weld 'professionally' 9-5 monday to friday.
- without wanting to sound obnoxious or blowing my own horn, i am extremely confident in the fact i know full well i can construct, and most importantly weld a cage with either TIG or MIG that will more than exceed any structural test requirement.
So, for example lets give a scenario:
I make a roll cage for, say a stage rally car or race car etc where no normal cage is available. the cage is made from the correct spec tube as per regs, designed correctly and welded perfectly
Unftunately, some freak accident happens and the driver is badly hurt for example, say they hit something that no cage would withstand - it rolls onto its roof and slides into a big rock or something along those lines.
Before we jump down the welders neck with all sort of litigation horror stories, surely, its up to someone to prove beyond all resonable doubt that the specific weld at a certain point of the cage has failed causing this accident? which i think is a pretty tall ask?
what about the guy who installed the brakes?
what about the steering system?
were the tyres an issue?
you see where im going .. has anyone heard of a case where this has actually happened ?
i was doing a search on this, and came across this interesting thread so thought id bump it up 3 years on
reason being, I've been getting quite a few enquiries lately regarding this, and its something i have an interest in and enjoy doing.
I've build FIA specified cages for my own competition cars over the years, and a few others for associates etc, and admittedy from the outset, il say i didnt really consider this much until reading some of the comments.
but, to throw a different light on it, rather than just think the worst - these would be my points.
- I was a coded welder, in stainless and aluminium tube and sheet, all positions etc. but i let it lapse a number of years ago as it was expensive, and i dont weld 'professionally' 9-5 monday to friday.
- without wanting to sound obnoxious or blowing my own horn, i am extremely confident in the fact i know full well i can construct, and most importantly weld a cage with either TIG or MIG that will more than exceed any structural test requirement.
So, for example lets give a scenario:
I make a roll cage for, say a stage rally car or race car etc where no normal cage is available. the cage is made from the correct spec tube as per regs, designed correctly and welded perfectly
Unftunately, some freak accident happens and the driver is badly hurt for example, say they hit something that no cage would withstand - it rolls onto its roof and slides into a big rock or something along those lines.
Before we jump down the welders neck with all sort of litigation horror stories, surely, its up to someone to prove beyond all resonable doubt that the specific weld at a certain point of the cage has failed causing this accident? which i think is a pretty tall ask?
what about the guy who installed the brakes?
what about the steering system?
were the tyres an issue?
you see where im going .. has anyone heard of a case where this has actually happened ?
I have a friend who was Stage Commander on a stage where a rally car hit a deep puddle, went off the road & into a lake. Unfortunately it resulted in a fatality, so there was an inquest.
During the inquest the judge grilled everybody & I mean grilled. Luckily my friend was an ex firefighter, knew what to expect & was very well prepared. He took notes during the incident, wrote a full report & knew exactly what he wrote. The judge tested him on a few things but he passed & was commended for handling the situation on the day and the accuracy of his evidence.
But the judge made absolute mincemeat of quite a few others who were poorly prepared, including the scrutineers who certify the cars safety gear, including the roll cage.
Throughout the inquest it was obvious the judge was looking for someone to blame. He knew nothing about motorsport & was surprised about the lackluster way some stuff is carried out. I think the final verdict was accidental death but a long report was sent to the UK motorsport governing body, the MSA & that resulted in a lot of tightening up over here regarding scrutiny, stage setup & location of emergency services on a stage.After hearing what went on there would be no way I would build a competition roll cage for anyone, not even myself. Unless you have a lot of money or are very well insured (I'm talking millions) and the worst happens you will be financially ruined & maybe find yourself locked up! In the case I reported the judge could easily have blamed my friend for not clearing the puddle, leaving him open for legal action from the deceased's family!
Pigeon_Droppings2
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Personally wouldn't do it myself...far too much hassle if it goes wrong. Even if what goes wrong is nothing to do with you...just the hassle factor would put me off.
I am wondering whether you could get a professional inspection done of the work....basically someone qualified to certify it's been done correctly and document the inspection!
Putting a professional inspection + the scrutineers between you and the possible liability gives you more cover I would think. Lets face it....if the experts didn't spot an issue then is it reasonable to expect you to have spotted it?
I am wondering whether you could get a professional inspection done of the work....basically someone qualified to certify it's been done correctly and document the inspection!
Putting a professional inspection + the scrutineers between you and the possible liability gives you more cover I would think. Lets face it....if the experts didn't spot an issue then is it reasonable to expect you to have spotted it?
I’ve read this thread with interest, not because I’m into motorsport or intend to build roll cages any time soon but because I really do feel that the day will come, in the not too distant future, where nobody will do/make anything for fear of legal repercussions.
There is another insurance related thread on here at the moment where people are saying they won’t touch any work that needs doing in a school because of potential legal problems down the line.
There is another insurance related thread on here at the moment where people are saying they won’t touch any work that needs doing in a school because of potential legal problems down the line.
There is a company over here that makes roll cage kits for weld in cages. Before they will sell you a cage they send you a sample joint that you weld & send to them for inspection. Only if the welded joint passes their test will they let you assemble the cage yourself. One time I priced it up & when you count your own man hours and consumables it was very little more to send the shell to them & let the pros do it! At least then you are sure & you have a piece of paper from the company to certify the cage!
zeppelin builder
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I recall being at a stock-car [i.e. 'banger'] meeting where a driver was killed when his car flipped over and the roll-cage collapsed - it wasn't even welded but as @pdg says...scaffold tube held together, not with blu-tac but with couplings.
That was a loooong time ago now though, and there's no chance something like that'd get past scrutineering these days.
the wedges must have fell oot when it turned upside doon
Even when everything is proper and above board you can still get penalised.
There was a very tragic accident a few years ago when a Land Rover 110 when into a river and several kids died. They threw the book at the father. The LR was modified quite a bit but what annoyed me was the report from the coroner. Basically they said that by fitting the roll cage it had made the vehicle unstable and the bloke was criticised for fitting it.
Now obviously a roll cage will raise the c of g but there are many vehicles fitted with them. Especially LRs used for site work and even many Police vehicles.
There was a very tragic accident a few years ago when a Land Rover 110 when into a river and several kids died. They threw the book at the father. The LR was modified quite a bit but what annoyed me was the report from the coroner. Basically they said that by fitting the roll cage it had made the vehicle unstable and the bloke was criticised for fitting it.
Now obviously a roll cage will raise the c of g but there are many vehicles fitted with them. Especially LRs used for site work and even many Police vehicles.
Ooo get a grip you lot.
Cages are designed to be suitable for the stresses involved, main hoops are one piece, any joints are in compression (mostly), and a look at the msa rule book will tell you that these things have come a long way since the days of scaffold tube.
If someone isn't comforable with the potential risk in being sued, then fair enough, but really, if you can weld you should have have no fears...
Cages are designed to be suitable for the stresses involved, main hoops are one piece, any joints are in compression (mostly), and a look at the msa rule book will tell you that these things have come a long way since the days of scaffold tube.
If someone isn't comforable with the potential risk in being sued, then fair enough, but really, if you can weld you should have have no fears...
Gritineye
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Yup, I agree with that ^^
20+ yrs ago I built a few off road competition cars for other people, chassis frame and roll cage to my design, I was young and never gave insurance a thought!
They were close copies of the ones I'd built for myself, which had survived a few proper roll over and endo 'incidents' without any weld failures.
I'm not a proper welder, but a few of of my builds are still being used in anger 20+ yrs later and all have had 'incidents', as far as I can see are all still straight.
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Richard.
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While the welding should be up to an acceptable standard the real strength in any roll cage should be in the design.
There is no acceptable reason a cage should fail under the weight and forces applied in a roll if it’s put together properly in accordance with a good design.
There is no acceptable reason a cage should fail under the weight and forces applied in a roll if it’s put together properly in accordance with a good design.
whm_fab
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interesting comments, thanks for the replies!
i would echo the comments of @minimutly and @Richard. , i think sometimes, we have gone ott these days with all this stuff. im not for one moment saying that if by some freak misfortune that something happened you could be questioned, but it seems like alot of people are edging towards in any event, its automatically the cage builder who would be somehow singled out and the 1000 other factors are ignored, hardly the case.
i just think if that was the case, safety devices or custom cages would have court cases coming out their ears in literally months as they fit out 1000's of cars. is every car that crashes with a safety devices cage taking them to court? ive installed, and owned many safety devices cages, and the welding is ok. just ok.
In my personal opinion, i think the chances are so slim that a cage you might install in a car has some flaw (if its welded properly with correct spec tube i dont see how) that car crashes, somehow the cage fails, and then the person decides to sue that it seems a little excessive. We could all insure ourselves to the eyeballs for every eventuality in life, but when 99.7% of it doesnt happen, is it really worth it?
like Richard says, a properly designed roll cage, welded correctly should not fail before anything else for any reason, and i would be confident in that.
its getting to the stage now where people wont help an old lady across the street without insurance.
good discussion anyway !
i would echo the comments of @minimutly and @Richard. , i think sometimes, we have gone ott these days with all this stuff. im not for one moment saying that if by some freak misfortune that something happened you could be questioned, but it seems like alot of people are edging towards in any event, its automatically the cage builder who would be somehow singled out and the 1000 other factors are ignored, hardly the case.
i just think if that was the case, safety devices or custom cages would have court cases coming out their ears in literally months as they fit out 1000's of cars. is every car that crashes with a safety devices cage taking them to court? ive installed, and owned many safety devices cages, and the welding is ok. just ok.
In my personal opinion, i think the chances are so slim that a cage you might install in a car has some flaw (if its welded properly with correct spec tube i dont see how) that car crashes, somehow the cage fails, and then the person decides to sue that it seems a little excessive. We could all insure ourselves to the eyeballs for every eventuality in life, but when 99.7% of it doesnt happen, is it really worth it?
like Richard says, a properly designed roll cage, welded correctly should not fail before anything else for any reason, and i would be confident in that.
its getting to the stage now where people wont help an old lady across the street without insurance.
good discussion anyway !
premmington
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whm_fab
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theres not a lot of scope actually in most regs to mess up the design, its fairly specific.
if you're actually clued in to motorpsort engineering and not just a cowboy welding tubes into a car, its quite obvious and specific on the design.
Many years ago I got involved with Ford Motorsport or was it Motor Cross (i cant remember...it might be 25 years ago) They rang me asking about 4130 and T45 and we had a very long chat. In the end we ran some tests on the T45 joints welded with Mild steel.......before that they had been using CrMo and preheat as someone had recoomended....1CrMo is similar to the 4130.....They had also used 312 stainless.....we went with mild steel but made sure the welds were thicker than the tube wall....which they will be....the results were good....I cant recall all the detail but I know they adopted the method we recommended
Sean
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Brad, not really the place to ask too many people with opinions and no experience
seek advice from the class your mates car is in, there will be helpfull people there somewhere , ask the cage manufacturer, ask the chief scrutineer for his class of motorsportsport basically youve just asked the online equivalent of a bunch of blokes down the pub
But do it getting involved hands on with racing is great fun!
seek advice from the class your mates car is in, there will be helpfull people there somewhere , ask the cage manufacturer, ask the chief scrutineer for his class of motorsportsport basically youve just asked the online equivalent of a bunch of blokes down the pub
But do it getting involved hands on with racing is great fun!
