Is it time for a radical change to road works?

[hunter27]

At the moment they are
replacing the gas main down the winding road past our house. It's probably been going on 5 or 6 weeks now. Temporary traffic lights have been faulty for a lot of this time, red at both ends. The phone number on the traffic lights to report a fault is a PREMIUM rate number!
Trouble is people now go on red thinking they aren't working when they are.

 

[Agrismith]

90% of the problems that arise are down to the road users.
We have such a low standard of driving in this country that the knee jerk reaction is to increase TM. Watch the roadworks in other countries with significantly less TM and you will also observe the cars behaving better in the first place.
Even on a 30mph road it is no fun being in temporary traffic lights. Road closures too with people moving barriers to drive in to your safe zone.
People say it's because TM is left up when in needed but this is often due to curring times or due to the excessive amount of TM required being more of a job to collect. The excessive TM is required due to driving habits. Kind of a chicken and egg situation.

And the traffic lights not working,unless a faulty battery has ran out prematurely, then the biggest problem with temporary lights is people skipping reds causing people to wait and not proceed on a green and completely ruining the phases. Then the computers get confused and freeze again caused by impatient car drivers.

No doubt that there are problems caused by those doing the work but most problems could be solved if people changed there attitude towards road workers and temporary traffic management then it would improve the situation far quicker than complaining about the government legislated traffic management setups which are in place due to the poor attitude of road users.

 

[Pete.]

Have any of you worked on motorways/ duel carrageways in the 90's . Just a few cones out and assume the car drivers will slow down , don't for one second think that the twonks in cars will spare any fecks for the skins doing the road works . The traffic management is necessary to protect the workers from the majority of self centered motorists .
Why not just let the skins take their chances with no cones/ lights , to save the all important motorists any inconvenience !

Yes I nearly got killed twice in the mid-90's. The second time was an 8-wheeler which missed me only by heavy braking and a swerve so violent it nearly went over. Nowadays it's a lot safer in fact it's not so easy to get yourself into a position of danger.

As for empty roadworks with nothing going on I don't do road working except under very special circumstances (like cutting out the road deck in both Dartford Tunnels) but I can tell you that just because you can't see someone working it doesn't mean there's not stuff going on. They can't work on 50m of road at a time then move it all down and even if they could the bottleneck is still the same size so there's no gain in terms of traffic flow but a huge loss in terms of productivity. So, they close off as long a stretch as they need and get to working at several jobs simultaeneously.

Another thing I've done a fair bit of is structure remediation works. You might see an empty van parked all day for weeks on end but what you don't see is the workforce working under the roadway drilling, cutting, grounting bars, driving ground anchors. It's all slow-process stuff but very necessary and often there will be a stipulation that road traffic has to be restricted in speed and volume for the whole while that a particular piece of work is taking place.

Sure it's a pain in the **** but nobody does it for fun. We have some of the most heavily used roads in Europe and they need a lot of maintaining.

 

[indy4x]

Yep, but in Europe the road gangs work overnights and weekends, very very few restrictions are in place for more than a week - but that would mean hiring more people and having spells when they weren't worked at 150%, can't have that, it would eat into profits!

They do work overnight in the UK

Came back from Scotland down the M6 just before the bank holiday, 4 lanes down to 1 for repairs, this was around 9pm they were starting

And 3 different sections at a time

 

[Morrisman]

A car crashed into a house on the main A518 near Uttoxeter. Traffic lights were put up while a skip was in the road to take the rubble. The front of the house was supported with Acro props, and left. The lights were left there, on a main commuter route, huge queues during rush hour.

That was five months ago. Still there now.

A month ago some builders signs went up, and it looks like the rendering has been stripped off one outer wall, checking for cracks I assume.

I've been past dozens of times, sat in the traffic dozens of times, and I've never, ever, seen a workman in the area of the house, not once.

I'm not even sure why the lights are still there, maybe to stop traffic vibrations damaging the noise?

 

[Morrisman]

90% of the problems that arise are down to the road users.
We have such a low standard of driving in this country that the knee jerk reaction is to increase TM. Watch the roadworks in other countries with significantly less TM and you will also observe the cars behaving better in the first place.
Even on a 30mph road it is no fun being in temporary traffic lights. Road closures too with people moving barriers to drive in to your safe zone.
People say it's because TM is left up when in needed but this is often due to curring times or due to the excessive amount of TM required being more of a job to collect. The excessive TM is required due to driving habits. Kind of a chicken and egg situation.

And the traffic lights not working,unless a faulty battery has ran out prematurely, then the biggest problem with temporary lights is people skipping reds causing people to wait and not proceed on a green and completely ruining the phases. Then the computers get confused and freeze again caused by impatient car drivers.

No doubt that there are problems caused by those doing the work but most problems could be solved if people changed there attitude towards road workers and temporary traffic management then it would improve the situation far quicker than complaining about the government legislated traffic management setups which are in place due to the poor attitude of road users.

I've no objection to waiting at temporary traffic lights IF there is something being done, but as I've mentioned earlier, there are so many separate places with ongoing work.... yet nobody is ever working.
Riding back from a bike night to my house, last week, then to my daughters place,15 miles, there were SIX sets of temporary lights I had to pass through. Why can't they just do a couple, get them finished, then move on to another place.

It's almost like none of the different companies or agencies have any communication with the others. The typical issue of resurfacing a road, excellent job.... then a week later a utility company digs a trench along it...

 

[frank horton]

pee up and brewery comes to mind

 

[Trevorleach]

The road works should be just like rail works, happens at night where least amount of traffic effected, then big fines if not reopened for the start of the days traffic.

 

[DanZac]

The road works should be just like rail works, happens at night where least amount of traffic effected, then big fines if not reopened for the start of the days traffic.

Can we assume then that you'd be happy to cover the increased costs incurred from night working?

I'll grant you that utilities digging holes would be funded from your utility bill but motorway repairs etc are government funded and the only way that they will cover increased cost is through increased taxation.

Working through the night will always be more costly (lighting, getting delivery companies to work out of hours, unpleasant working payments etc), which is why I'd assume most work takes place during the day?

 

[Trevorleach]

Can we assume then that you'd be happy to cover the increased costs incurred from night working?

I'll grant you that utilities digging holes would be funded from your utility bill but motorway repairs etc are government funded and the only way that they will cover increased cost is through increased taxation.

Working through the night will always be more costly (lighting, getting delivery companies to work out of hours, unpleasant working payments etc), which is why I'd assume most work takes place during the day?

Yes, they need to keep the day traffic flowing no matter what, if there is a crash get the people out and shove the wreckage to the side and sort it out properly at night, all utilities need to go under the pavement and not under the road, the pavement will have lift off lids just like the concrete channels alongside rail tracks, so easy access for the repair guys/easy to add to etc etc, this would of course lower the repair costs, so your bills would come down!

If you always do things the the same way you always get the same results.

Trying to give up or throw a spanner in the works at the first hurdle is just defeatist.

 

[Pete.]

Yes, they need to keep the day traffic flowing no matter what, if there is a crash get the people out and shove the wreckage to the side and sort it out properly at night, all utilities need to go under the pavement and not under the road, the pavement will have lift off lids just like the concrete channels alongside rail tracks, so easy access for the repair guys/easy to add to etc etc, this would of course lower the repair costs, so your bills would come down!

It's a fine idea but under the pavement cannot be just a series of cable troughs, any lorry or bus that put wheels on the pavement would go straight through - not a problem on the railway. If you made them strong enough to hold weight then they would be too heavy to lift so guess what you'd need to do that - a road closure for the hi-ab. Then think about where all these covers are going whilst you do all the work, they can't sit on the pavement. Finally, you have to move the pedestrians somewhere, and if you dig the pavament up the only place left for them is - in the road!

 

[Agroshield]

...the pavement will have lift off lids...

If the nice, smooth road that you drive your car on had lift off lids, would it affect the ride quality?

Do spare a thought for those who mostly use the pavement - cyclists, escooterists, Uber eats mopeds.

I guess the wheelchair users and pushchairs could run along the edge of the road and the drivers will wait patiently behind or only pass with 1.5m of space when it is safe to do so.

 

[northwest]

Okay guys, I hear and see quite clearly both sides of this discussion, but can somebody explain to me the reasons behind HUGE illuminated signs that say 'SLOW' when you are stuck in traffic on the motorway or other helpful suggestions such as 'FOG' where you can barely make it out because of fog?
I am of the opinion that someone's mother/father/brother/wife owns the company that makes these (very outdated) signs.

 

[Trevorleach]

It's a fine idea but under the pavement cannot be just a series of cable troughs, any lorry or bus that put wheels on the pavement would go straight through - not a problem on the railway. If you made them strong enough to hold weight then they would be too heavy to lift so guess what you'd need to do that - a road closure for the hi-ab. Then think about where all these covers are going whilst you do all the work, they can't sit on the pavement. Finally, you have to move the pedestrians somewhere, and if you dig the pavament up the only place left for them is - in the road!

Simply ban vehicles form the pavement, pretty much how it is now.

 

[Trevorleach]

If the nice, smooth road that you drive your car on had lift off lids, would it affect the ride quality?

Do spare a thought for those who mostly use the pavement - cyclists, escooterists, Uber eats mopeds.

I guess the wheelchair users and pushchairs could run along the edge of the road and the drivers will wait patiently behind or only pass with 1.5m of space when it is safe to do so.

I supposes all your local pavements are glassy smooth?

 

[8ob]

Have any of you worked on motorways/ duel carrageways in the 90's . Just a few cones out and assume the car drivers will slow down , don't for one second think that the twonks in cars will spare any fecks for the skins doing the road works . The traffic management is necessary to protect the workers from the majority of self centered motorists .
Why not just let the skins take their chances with no cones/ lights , to save the all important motorists any inconvenience !

Yes, had teams out on the motorway banks clearing trees and vegetation for years with just the hard shoulder coned off and no crash cushions etc. I am not saying we were in a safer working environment back then but there were certainly fewer incidents around the work sites.TM on some of the work we still do costs three time more than the work itself, it can also take months to organise so we normally ask for more time than we need, again they are never in a hurry to come and remove it. On some of this stuff two guys on stop and go's is far more efficient.

Bob

 

[Agrismith]

It's a fine idea but under the pavement cannot be just a series of cable troughs, any lorry or bus that put wheels on the pavement would go straight through - not a problem on the railway. If you made them strong enough to hold weight then they would be too heavy to lift so guess what you'd need to do that - a road closure for the hi-ab. Then think about where all these covers are going whilst you do all the work, they can't sit on the pavement. Finally, you have to move the pedestrians somewhere, and if you dig the pavament up the only place left for them is - in the road!

Not to mention the amount of utilities burried under the road quite often wouldn't fit just under the pavement. And if you start stacking utilities you can't access the lower ones. Then with drainage you can't run stuff wherever you like your pretty heavily dictated by the falls required and the direction of flow.

From experience the only thing that makes the work quicker is a single gang carrying out all the work. Currently you get a TM gang set up TM, a dig gang to dig out, a subbase reinstatement gang to reinstate subbase and remove the dig out, a tarmac gang to tarmac and then the TM gang return to collect the traffic management. One gang doing everything is more efficient time wise but very inefficient cost wise. Plus it's difficult enough as it is to find staff let alone telling them to do 5 different jobs.

and also on the odd occasion we do do night work the complaints due to noise are constant. And quite often very aggressive.
and then if the job takes longer than one shift to complete then the road space is closed during the day anyway.

you simply cannot win

Simply ban vehicles form the pavement, pretty much how it is now.

So nooone can access their driveways ??
And large delivery vehicles and even emergency services struggle to maneuver.
Water ingress would mean days pumping out some sections just to start work.

Plus to reorganize the utilities would mean qrunning temporary supplies to everyone whilst the old stuff is removed.
And cutting of access to their houses. Cut of access for a day to fix a problem with their own stuff and you get a big enough row.

 

[dobbslc]

Do spare a thought for those who mostly use the pavement - cyclists, escooterists, Uber eats mopeds.

That made me laugh

 

[droopsnoot]

Another thing I've done a fair bit of is structure remediation works. You might see an empty van parked all day for weeks on end but what you don't see is the workforce working under the roadway drilling, cutting, grounting bars, driving ground anchors. It's all slow-process stuff but very necessary and often there will be a stipulation that road traffic has to be restricted in speed and volume for the whole while that a particular piece of work is taking place.

I noticed in some motorway roadworks the other week (M6 perhaps) that there are actually signs up now saying something like "work being done under the carriageway", just to remove the old "couldn't see anyone doing anything" argument.

My frustration is the quality of reinstatement work done - once a trench or hole is filled in around here the road usually resembles the surface of the moon. They're closing a lane that I use quite often to replace water or gas mains or something, it's closing for about 13 weeks, and the road is already a terrible surface with frequent deep potholes. I'd love to drive down it after this work has been done to find that they've taken the opportunity to properly resurface it while it's closed (as I'm sure getting permission to close it is a pain, especially for so long) but I know there will be an obvious trench that sits a few inches proud of the surrounding road surface for a year or two, until it starts to crack up and turns into a hole.

 

[Agrismith]

I noticed in some motorway roadworks the other week (M6 perhaps) that there are actually signs up now saying something like "work being done under the carriageway", just to remove the old "couldn't see anyone doing anything" argument.

My frustration is the quality of reinstatement work done - once a trench or hole is filled in around here the road usually resembles the surface of the moon. They're closing a lane that I use quite often to replace water or gas mains or something, it's closing for about 13 weeks, and the road is already a terrible surface with frequent deep potholes. I'd love to drive down it after this work has been done to find that they've taken the opportunity to properly resurface it while it's closed (as I'm sure getting permission to close it is a pain, especially for so long) but I know there will be an obvious trench that sits a few inches proud of the surrounding road surface for a year or two, until it starts to crack up and turns into a hole.

A big problem is that councils have banned overbanding tape which seals tarmac joints due to cyclists skidding on it and falling off. Without the overbanding tape it is very very difficult to seal a joint completely watertight so they fail in winter.
Really they need more regular surface dressing to sea the road surface but the council's are all skint and people complain about that too.