Self Shield or Not?

  1. Vambo Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Kent England
    I was looking for some self shield flux core and found the following:

    3× MIG MAG Fülldraht E71T-1C Ø 0,8 mm / 1 kg D100 Rolle
    Item #: 5520[​IMG]
    - Bright, layer wound
    - High current carrying capacity and low spatter
    - Unalloyed self-shielding flux cored wire electrode

    It can be found on Amazon and ebay - however doesn't the 'C' in E71T-1C mean that you have to use CO2 gas with this stuff?
     
  2. SV1BDO

    SV1BDO Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Greece, Egio City
    YES, it needs CO2. For gasless wires, you can try either E71T-GS (for general use) or E71T-11 (can be used also for welding Galv material). As E71T-GS is a very wide specification, you can find many qualities.
     
  3. Vambo Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Kent England
    Did email them earlier - got this reply:

    Hello,


    thanks for the mail. This cored wire can be processed without gas. The device should only have the opportunity to change the polarity.
     
  4. SV1BDO

    SV1BDO Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Greece, Egio City
    Yes, you have to reverse polarity (DCEN electrode negative, ground positive), but I am not shure that they give you a fully correct answer. Have a look at the official American Welding Society Forum regarding this topic. According to AWS 5.20 classification, C in the suffix means 100% CO2 is required (not optional, but mandatory). The similar flux wire without gas is just E71T-1.
     
  5. Vambo Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Kent England
    The picture of the product is most confusing - what the heck am I supposed to believe!!!!
    15674484378906072318754838154194.jpg
     
  6. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,084
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Dont think there was a GS designation last time I looked at the AWS.....whoever decided on that must be a right pillock.....GS usually means GAS SHIELDED as in FCAW-GS as opposed to FCAW-SS....self shielded.....I suppose SS can be thought of as Stainless Steel but in designating a FCAW for Mild or Low Alloy steel the SS usually means Self Shielded.

    OK rant over
     
  7. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,084
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Regarding the OPs dilemma......I would assume the printed description to be correct.......Dealers / Distributors are often wrong.........if you want self shielded look elsewhere......Lincoln Innershield NR211-MP is a very good one

    PS I dont think 0.8mm is an acceptable diameter according to AWS........usually its 0.9mm or the Imperial equivalent that I cant remember
     
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  8. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,084
    Location:
    Rotherham
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  9. SV1BDO

    SV1BDO Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Greece, Egio City
    @Vambo, if the product is 100% according to AWS specs, it should be mention clearly the AWS 5.20 classification and also other international norms that comply. But, looks like more than a re-branded cheap chinese wire. Stahlwerk has a good reputation for their machines, so I guess that they are not lying and the extra "C" is rather a typo mistake. Ask them for return and refund, if the wire do needs CO2. But, why not checking also for something else?
     
  10. Munkul Member

    Messages:
    1,163
    Cumbria, UK
    That's a handy page to read!

    Only gasless wire i've ever used was the lincoln NR211MP and i had a great time with it WHEN SET TO LINCOLN RECCOMENDATIONS for voltage, polarity etc. No spatter, low flux, good weld bead, good vertical up capability, what more could you need :) It's also the only one of the "hobby" type fluxcore wires that actually gives you proper weld data.

    To my mind, if you want good welds, then you need to buy good consumables. More so when the electrode is its own shield, ie. FC wire or MMA electrodes.
     
  11. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,084
    Location:
    Rotherham
    I wouldnt class it as a "hobby" wire.....its a serious consumable but it is made in 0.9mm and on small spools which, of course, suit the hobby market. From a professional point of view it suffers from embrittlement, in that subsequent layers embrittle the previous layer.....again, we are not talking cast iron type embrittlement, but more brittle than it was before the 2nd bead was put on top. It may say limited to 10mm plate but, in truth its limited to 3 passes because of the aforementioned. That could be 12mm thick or even more with bigger wires.
    As with most things in life you cant have it all ways, good welding performance often comes at a price. The wire that are unlimited pass are generally nasty to use with little idiosyncrasies that you need to know before you start.
     
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  12. SV1BDO

    SV1BDO Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Greece, Egio City
    I agree 1000% with you. Unfortunatelly there is not a dedicated category in the forum regarding consumables. Sometimes the quality of a welding drop or raise dramatically, if you just change the wire or electrode.

    Regarding the flux wires now. If I have understood well, @Vambo needs a gasless flux wire. The most common categories in this class (and also available in D100 small rolls of 1 Kg) are the E71T-GS & E71T-11 (according to AWS 5.20 classification).
    I have used Hyundai Supershield 11 (E71T-11, 0.9mm), INETUB BA71GS & INETUB BA71T11 (both 0,8mm) & a cheap Taiwanese E71T-GS that I don't remember the name, all in 5 Kg rolls. I have run totally 5 spools during 2 years. So, according to this short experience, I have make the following notes:

    General Remarks:
    1) In all flux wires you have to change polarity in your machine, otherwise you will have eratic operation and many spatters.
    2) ALL flux wires produce spatters. You can reduce them, if your machine has INDUCTANCE control. Turn it to full positive.
    3) There are many anti-spatter sprays that you can use to spray the surrounding surfaces, you will save time later on grinding.
    4) You cannot weld very thin plates (1mm or less) with flux wires, but you can weld better thicker plates (8-10mm)
    5) It's better to pull than push the torch.
    6) No-gas flux wires are ideal for outdoor usage, as they produce more fumes.
    7) If you use gasless wire, you can remove the outer nozzle of your torch, so you can have a better view of the wire and the welding pool.
    8) -GS is a general suffix for the E71T-GS, without any equirements in composition. This means practically that -GS wires cannot compared between them, as each manufacturer has its own composition.
    9) E71T-11 wires are very common in USA, you can find many brands (Linkoln, ESAB, Hobart etc) that have their own wires. They are also very good for welding galvanized material. Be aware of dangerous fumes when welding galv. material.
    10) All flux wires produce some slag, but it can easily removed with wire brush.

    Remarks about the wires that I have tried:
    a) Hyundai E71T-11 has the deaper penetration and is very good for thick material (8-10mm). Produces more slag & fumes, compared to INE.
    b) Both INETUB wires have smooth run and produce less slag compared to Hyundai. Just for refference, INE E71T-GS has many & very good reviews in Amazon and it is rated as one of the top wires in a recent eview

    Options: A Polish e-shop that I have bought from them many spairs and also a gas bottle, has flux wires from Kiswel. They have also good reputation, butI have not try it yet. I will order one small roll just for trying & comparison. Canditates for testing are also the WeldingCity & Blue demon, but they are sold only in USA and shipping to Europe is very expensive.

    Bottom line: My recomendation is to try with one small roll INE E71T-GS. If the results satisfy you, then go for a 5 Kg spool, if your machine accepts them. Otherwise, try another brand, until you find the wire that satisfies you. But, you will not dissapointed with INE.
     
  13. Munkul Member

    Messages:
    1,163
    Cumbria, UK
    Lincoln NR211MP, single pass on 1/4" plate, I did these at Christmas time to try out one of the small rolls. Used on my Miller XMT, IIRC around 150IPM and 17 volts. Medium inductance same as for short-arc solid wire. (although this machine is very smooth so never needs much inductance). As you can see, no spatter.

    [​IMG]

    Ultimately I was disappointed with my "impact test" where i cut a section out and beat the snot out of it with a hammer. It's not designed for high impact values, though. Similar to most 6013 I imagine. But runs a puddle similar to 7018.

    From this, I almost wish i could justify a small inverter MIG set up permanently with this wire, since it's such a nice wire to run, be very easy for repairs etc. But to be fair we get by with MMA and 7018 which is usually a better choice anyway.

    Sorry Al, I know it's not a "hobby" wire as such, exactly how you said it really. It's probably the best of the bunch precisely because it was designed as a serious wire.

    I'd like to try some NR233 but it's either unavailable or really expensive. It seems like a much stronger wire... since they build bridges out of the stuff ;)
     
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  14. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,084
    Location:
    Rotherham
    you would hate the nr233....its awful to use
     
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  15. Munkul Member

    Messages:
    1,163
    Cumbria, UK
    ah, fair enough ;) what are the main downsides?

    are there any other contenders worth considering?

    Not really planning to spend money, but it's nice to know...
     
  16. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,084
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Its very voltage sensitive and its smoky....It takes a lot of practice to get used to it..........the "slag" is like dust and it gets to your throat.........none of the smally bits really matter because you can used extraction on the torch but you obviously need the set up for that. Its predecessor was even worse NR232. That one had 2 sizes that were almost the same 1.7 and 1.8mm and the 1.8mm was good vertical but not flat and the 1.7mm was the opposite. This is the wire that built a 100 bridges.....I remember Avonmouth Bridge where they used it inside the box girder but with extraction blowing it outside and big fans blowing through the bridge...
     
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