Lots of newbie questions

[Cactus]

Hey ho chaps, pretty disheartened welder guy here, looking for some help.

I've been practicing welding for about a month now, I started off pretty good but I just seem to be getting worse and worse, today was just the last straw.

I setup two nice straight edged panels using Intergrips from frost, prepped both panels and a spot for the earth. Went to weld and *pop*, huge hole blown. So I dropped the power down to 1/Min, still blowing holes!

I'm using a Clarke 90EN set to 2/min, .9mm wire at speed 6.

I tried to do some lines of weld on some sheet set to 1/max and it just warps the panel due to heat. If I do it any quicker it doesn't penetrate. The only way I can make a decent line is if I do short bursts, then leave the panel to cool before going back for another burst.

If I drop the power to 1/min then theres just no hope of it penetrating and if i raise it to 2/min then theres just holes blown constantly.

These frost Intergrips just seem useless to me too, as they appear to leave too big of a gap between the panels? I'm most likley wrong here seeing as people swear by them.

I'm just really annoyed, I've been waiting years to weld up my Mini, finally getting around to it now and discovering welding is alot tricker I'd been led to think.

Going by the guide on this site http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/clarke-90.htm which uses the same welder as mine, I can only guess that I'm doing something terribley wrong. I can do spots fine, but as soon as I try and make a line the panel just warps massivley.

I've got a couple of pictures of practice sheets, incase they point out something that I havn't spotted.





The way my lines look after I've done them looks like I'm moving too fast, far too fast. But if I go any slower then the panel warps and eventually holes are blown.

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant or if I've been unclear, I just really could do with some help. It just feels like everytime I try my welds are getting worse, Mechanically the welder is setup right as I lent it to a friend who repairs cars and he was actually quite impressed with the welder. So its just my own lack of skill I think thats the problem.

The only thing that spring to mind, is perhaps my sheet steel is too thin, but its the same thickness of the panels I'll be welding so it can't really be that.

I just don't know anymore, any advice would be great. Cheers

 

[shenion]

Try 1/max, some manuals on the Clarke welders are wrong.

Gasless is difficult on thin metal. Using gas will reduce the heat and it will be easier.

FOr a continuous weld, you will have to move fast.

 

[rtbcomp]

Further to what Shenion says you should really be using 0.6mm wire on car body panels.

 

[Cactus]

I'm afraid I can't do gas right now, I'm gonna have to stick to gasless. I'll try fiddling with the power settings again and see if anything makes sense.

About the wire, can you get 0.6mm for gasless? I had asked about it at machine mart and was told theres no such thing. Not sure if it was just the guy fobbing me off though.

Cheers for the help guys

 

[shenion]

The smallest you can get in gasless is 0.8mm.

 

[rtbcomp]

.......
About the wire, can you get 0.6mm for gasless? .....

No.

To be honest MM's wire probably isn't the best, you should go to a specialist welsding supplies firm.

 

[weldequip]

You've no chance welding car bodywork thickness with gas-less wire, OK on thicker stuff but not thin sheet; switch to Ar/CO2 gas & 0.6mm wire & you will see the difference
weldequip

 

[Cactus]

Is there honestly no other way? Switching to gas is going to be a huge jump. There isn't anywhere in my area to supply me so I'd be reduced to those crappy halfords bottles. Plus then I'll need all the other gas gear and then theres more things to go wrong... I dunno.

I've been told by people before that I can get by on gasless, after this rage I wen't and had another go at doing some lines on sheet metal with min/1 settings, the penetration is a little hit and miss but its *so* close to being right. I don't even know if I can wind-proof the old garage enough for gas to work. (garage was built in WW2, mostly from asbestos. Spent about a year replacing it!)

I do appriciate the advice (even if it seems otherwise), it just always seems when I've got the right setup someone comes along and says "ah, thats not right".

I think maybe I'll see how much its going to cost to upgrade to gas, then see how I get on with one of those halfords bottles. If the welds improve a great deal then I guess I know where my problem is. Does that sound like the right plan?

I suppose on a good note, at least my welder can go both gas and gasless, so I wouldn't have to fork out for a new welding unit.

Cheers again for the help, sorry if I'm being a moaning old git.

 

[weldequip]

You'll be able to set it up to run on disposable gas canisters for around £30 and will immediately appreciate the difference; if it's a larger project with plenty of welding forget the disposables, bite the bullet, and go straight for a refillbale gas cylinder upgrade. More cost involved, but you will soon realise the cost savings in gas compared to disposable canisters + will be able to do the job properly
weldequip

 

[shenion]

Just penetrating is about right. Full penetration will blow through too easily. Setting for laying beads in the middle of a sheet with barely full penetration will have full penetration on a butt joint.

You can do gasless, but you will have to do a stitch technique. Will have lots of pinholes and be alot of work.

You might look at using CO2 and a pub bottle. weldequip stocks a reg that will work on both CO2 and argon mix bottles. CO2 is not ideal for thin metal but works far better than gasless.

With big bottle, gas should be no problem in an open garage. I use mine outside with no problems on normal days, if it is windy I use an old sheet of plywood as a wind break.

Disposables will work and you will have much better welds. But they cost a fortune; I would bet you wiould soon swap the reg for a big bottle.

 

[Cactus]

Its a huge project I'm afraid, About half the panels need replacing, plus theres 2 more minis and a metro on the drive that need welding too!

I'll have a go at stitching on low power then, just to see what becomes of it.

See, 90% of the welds I'll be doing are plug welds (Minis were mostly spot-welded in the factory) which I can do just fine, but theres a few repairs which would need to be butt welded.

I meant I'd get a small bottle from halfords as a tester, just to see how different the welds were. If I did go for gas I'd definatly have to rent one as the cost for the piddley little bottles would be huge!

Whelp, looks like I'm gonna have to read up on how to convert to gas now, doh! Cheers for the help again. No idea where I'm gonna find somewhere to rent the gas from though, guess its time to check the yellow pages?

 

[rtbcomp]

Have a look through here

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=27

 

[Wedg1e]

Hey Cactus, I'm a handful of miles away from you in Stockton. First time I ever saw a gasless welder was at Stockton-Billingham tech in the early 90s. Even the welding instructors couldn't get a decent weld out of it.

Cheapest 'upgrade' would be a spool of 0.8mm an a pub-sized bottle of CO2. Yes, it's not as good as Argoshield but a refill is about a tenner (if you know which door to knock on in the 'Boro)... and I can run you off a reel of 0.8 wire from my set which takes 15Kg reels, I wouldn't miss a few hundred feet

You'd only need to find a suitable regulator/flowmeter for the CO2 and Bob's your uncle.
Avoid disposable bottles and tiny reels of wire like the plague; you'll go bankrupt. I used to buy 5Kg reels of wire and spool it off onto the tiny reel for my SIP 90A (probably the same size as your set) - takes 5 mins with a cordless drill and saves a fortune. In fact I think I have the remnants of a 5Kg reel in the workshop since I sold my SIP some time back.
The CO2 bottles are easy enough to come by.

All this aside, you may still find that the MIG won't go low enough on the current to get it exactly right... but you can develop a technique that works well enough most of the time. I started by welding up a TVR chassis, but that's 2mm thick, just crank it up and

 

[welder pete]

You've no chance welding car bodywork thickness with gas-less wire, OK on thicker stuff but not thin sheet; switch to Ar/CO2 gas & 0.6mm wire & you will see the difference
weldequip

i do alot of MOT welding out of work for a freind who is selling cars on ebay and i have no trouble welding car panels with gassless mig been doing it for a few years now i find gasless better for outside as the gas dont get blown off by the wind. sills and floor pans no problem with a cheep screwfix gasless welder using 0.8 flux cored

 

[Cactus]

Wedg1e: Cheers for the offer, but I think I'll move down to 0.6mm wire rather than .8, I've had quite a few people now (been phoning everyone i know with a welder!) and sure enough they all said I'd fare better with 0.6 rather than the 0.9 I'm using at the mo.

I tried a couple of pubs near me, but since I'm not much of a pub-go'er none of them wanted to know about getting bottles from them. I did manage to find a BOC retailer shop thing on the industrial estate near me, so I reckon I'll give them a phone and see how much the damage is. I think I'll go for argosheild if I can, though it isn't inert (and thus explosive?) so that worries me a little.

Fact is really, that I have a hell of alot of welding to do in the next few years, so I might as well take advantage of anything that can make it easier, such as going for gas. And the cost of switching to gas is just a drop in the pool really compared to how much body panels are going to set me back! I've just been avoiding it as it adds more things to tweak/go wrong.

I'm gonna keep practicing a little more with the gasless, but I get the feeling I'd benifit from switching to gas. Cheers for the replies guys