For a Networking expert.?

  1. howardm

    howardm Yorkshireman in exile

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Aberdeen
    Hi guys,
    I use the home powerline adaptors to distribute the internet to my shed and garage, it works surprisingly well. I have been using this powerline network for my CCTV security cameras to get the video into the DVR.
    So, here comes the question.
    I have security lights around the building exterior which I could potentially use to add more cameras to my system, pushing the video down the security light supply, but how.?
    Has anyone come across a device other than the powerline adaptor (which needs a 3 pin socket) to get the signal down the security light cable.? It needs to be waterproof device.!
    I hope this makes sense.

    Thanks
    Howard
     
  2. sako243

    sako243 Member

    Messages:
    689
    Location:
    My mansion in Wales
    You'll be hard pushed to find what you want. Perhaps better to stick one of those waterproof junction boxes nearby the security light and put the adapter in there?
     
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  3. rikrobson

    rikrobson Member

    Messages:
    3,815
    Location:
    Perth, Scotland
    There are PoE cameras available where the cameras power is over the ether net cable, but these nned a PoE switch ir a PoE injector for the power
     
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  4. Domdom Member

    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    UK, Warwickshire
    Ok, shoving network traffic over power cables is never a good idea, lousy security and creates noise on the mains supply. However.....

    So, to use them on lighting circuits would mean adding a socket to plug the powerline device into. At the light. Think about that, adding sockets to lighting circuits, regs etc. That’s before you put it all in a IP68 box to keep the water out.

    Not really a go-er unless you’re happy with that level of redneck engineering. Just because it’s physically possible doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

    Many IP cameras can use POE for which you would need a POE switch and some external grade UTP CAT6 cables. All cheap enough and a much better solution. That’s exactly how I’ve done it for cameras, wifi access points and it’s how I connected my garden office and shed to the house.
     
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  5. We need an ecstatic like button. This man tells it like it is. PLEASE don't use Powerline adapters anywhere, anytime. They may cause you no trouble but is is the equivalent of burning painted wood for everyone around you.
     
  6. grim_d

    grim_d Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    Scotland - Ayrshire
    I've seen this mentioned a few times now. I'd like to know more if you will? Or have a link to something I can read? Can't say I've ever seen or heard of anyone ever having a issue.
     
  7. Hopefuldave Intergalactic pot-mender

    Messages:
    1,151
    Location:
    The Shed of Danger, surrey, England
    No, it's their neighbours that have issues... Particularly neighbours like me who went to night school, sat an exam and learnt morse code to get a licence to use the radio spectrum.

    https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/all/2009/09/04/power_line_networking/





    For some reason it's perfectly acceptable to operate unlicenced wideband radio jammers in the UK as it only affects everybody else's reception and it makes money for unscrupulous manufacturers of.

    Dave H. (the other one)
     
  8. Domdom Member

    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    UK, Warwickshire
    Those videos that @Hopefuldave posted are as good as anything you will find to read. If you wanted convincing about the security aspect then if I told you that a major global IT company I used to work for prohibited their use for employees that worked from home would that convince you? And I mean prohibited, the VPN we all used had a checking tool which used to scan for things like up to date antivirus, the results of the last scan and it also used to scan the local network for specific ranges of MAC addresses which were known to be associated to companies that make these powerline connectors.

    Also, in the same way that reputable welding companies don't get involved in the weeds such as cheap far east machinery etc, see how many of the professional networking companies make powerline adapters. Think Cisco, HP Procurve, Foundry, A10, Avaya - the big names. None of them do. (manufacturers, not retailers - BT will sell you anything but they don't actually make stuff as an example)

    The technical reasons are numerous and chief among them are latency. Powerline units are effectively like old modems, they turn a digital signal into something which can be transposed on top of 240v AC and then the receiver turns it back again, all of which takes time and introduces latency. Even a period as short as 200 milliseconds slows down a TCP connection to a maximum of about 2.5 meg per data stream. If you add in the encryption overhead it just gets worse. So that superfast broadband at 50 megabits is now back to old ADSL speed.

    There are alternatives such as units which will drive ethernet over co-ax and these are handy where the 100m Cat6 maximum length would be exceeded. Again, a fairly large bodge but handy for building sites etc, linking porta-cabins and fairly remote cameras. I see them as a last resort though and I've been doing this stuff for over 30 years, since the days of ArcNet. I am one of the very few who put CAT6 throughout the whole house to avoid using WiFi wherever possible. I do have WiFi for things like IPADs and phones but this is a separate network which is firewalled from the cabled network. And besides security, performance is vastly superior over a cable.

    Then we come to the interference side. The carrier signal is in the audible spectrum which means humans can hear it. Anything it interferes with such as FM radio, DAB radio, good Hi-Fi (remember that your ring mains are a rather efficient aerial) will all reproduce this noise, and this happens for many households in the vicinity who are using the same phase in the street. Every 3rd house is a good approximation. Except that so many of these things are in use you will likely find it in every house nowadays. It's the main reason I binned the DAB radio I had and I now use Alexa to play the radio for me 'cos someone in our village on the same phase as me is using the things.

    There is plenty of material which Uncle Google will find for you. The key to it is the author. Some IT Professionals think they are fine, and these are the guys with zero knowledge of RF or IT Security. Apparently if it's encrypted that's just fine and dandy, except much of it can be broken into as the encryption algorithms are not all high grade like AES. RF interference isn't something a lot of folks can understand simply because they have never had any education. Even my lovely wife can't understand the concept of why chain link fencing acts as a perfect Faraday cage, why when she plays tennis her cellphone barely works inside the court fencing. Apparently the holes should let the signal through :) So check the author and the perspective they are speaking from. If it's simply solving a connection challenge then what is the thought and consideration process?

    Last word (promise). You get undressed to go to bed. Do you do this with the curtain open or drawn? If open, someone might be watching. Do you care? I personally don't, but if you had your internet banking details written on your back in black marker - would you care then? You do internet banking on your home device which is connected to this network which might be broadcasting those data packets to persons unknown, using potentially insecure encryption (if any at all). Is it worth the risk? Just run a Cat6 cable and do the job right.
     
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  9. erasma Member

    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    Uk chester
    Can some one explain how encryption works between the web browser and the bank website? or in fact how HTTPS:// most sites use now days works? Even this website uses HTTPS?

    people post more stuff on facebook and other sharing platforms then what some one with the correct skills will try steal by listening to your powerline traffic.

    Much easier to listen to Wifi then mess about with plugging in power line adapter to try listen into someones comms. If someone wants in they will get in https://shop.hak5.org/
     
  10. sako243

    sako243 Member

    Messages:
    689
    Location:
    My mansion in Wales
    https://love2dev.com/blog/how-https-works/

    If you're interested on reading up a bit of the background behind it then I'd recommend Simon Singh's "The Code Book" it's really well written and aimed at the average (well at least when it was written) person to understand rather than a mathematics wizard. It gives a good grounding in public key cryptography which is the foundation for pretty much all secure communications these days (HTTP and so on are just protocols on top that leverage public key cryptography among other technologies).
     
  11. Kayos

    Kayos Member

    Messages:
    5,014
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    We had a power cut a while ago, I fired up some radios with a battery. No noise on 10m at all!
    Normally its unusable at home
     
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  12. rikrobson

    rikrobson Member

    Messages:
    3,815
    Location:
    Perth, Scotland
    you have 2 keys. one to lock and one to unlock the locking key is a public key and can only lock the box and a private key which can unlock the box. both sides have a set of keys. so you connect to the bank and they give you their locking key and you give them yours. then all the messages are sent between locked in a box that only the recipient can open. Your messages are sent using your keys and the banks massages to you user their keys. The bank will have a signed certificate acting as their key. there are different levels of trust so a bank will have an ultra trusted key which should tun the lock icon green. your PC will have a self signed certificate built bt windows or you operating system or browser, vpn etc. automatically. wifi encryption uses the same system.
    the certificate the bank will use has 2048 bits as the key so that's 2^2048 combinations ( very big number) imagine a key and lock with about 500 pins, so they are hard to guess. Then there are different algorithms to do the encryption. these are all negotiated at the connection is made, whether it be a https site to your bank, a VPN tunnel or wifi
     
  13. erasma Member

    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    Uk chester
    Sounds like the traffic then is secure not sure what all the worry is? unless important data is being transmitted across the local network?
     
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