Gas unit gasless?

[AndyT46]

Hello good people, I'm new to this welding game and have a quick question.
I recently bought a clarke 150te turbo for what I believe was a bargain. Anyhow, it came with several reels of wire, one of which is fluxcore. So my question is, can I use the fluxcore wire with no gas on this unit?
I am in the process of getting gas but just wondered if I would damage anything by practising with the flux and gasless.

 

[gordon stephenson]

Flux core needs to be run with the torch negative and work lead positive, if your machine is capable of have if the connectors set to this position, then it should be ok,

 

[gaz1]

unless your prepared to put some money into it and mod it so the wires can be swapped around

my advice dont get the small disposable gas either waste of money and 2 of them is the same price as an account of gas for the big tanks

 

[hunter27]

I and welcome. I Guess not on this machine, see link below.
http://www.clarkedistributors.ie/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=662
Pete

 

[BrokenBiker]

just try it with torch positive, ive run flux core through a snap on 150 amp mig and didnt bother swapping the leads as i couldnt be bothered to check if they were able to be swapped and only had a few welds to run, it ran better than my own mig that is only designed to run gasless.

it wont damage anything and at worst you have lost a few quid in wire, and end up with some snotty welds and will have learnt something

 

[AndyT46]

Cheers for the replies! I know that I cannot change the polarity on this machine but while I'm.sorting gas I just wondered if it was worth using the roll of flux core I got for practice. My main concern was whether it would damage my machine running it gasless, but I'm assuming the gas is purely for the weld itself and not the welding unit.

 

[BrokenBiker]

the gas is to stop the weld pool oxidising, the machine hasnt got a clue whether there is gas flowing or not and doesnt care either.

 

[AndyT46]

So then, if you can use a gas unit without gas and cause no harm to the machine. What is the purpose of a gasless machine? Does the reverse polarity make a difference to the quality of the weld? Why not just buy a gas mig and run gasless if you wish to do so?
I know you need the gasless flux wire which I'm guessing creates it's own shielding gas of sorts.

 

[Appyasme1]

This is a quite interesting thread.We have allways used FCW with an Ar/Co2 mixture.I am thinking about porosity?

 

[PTvor]

So then, if you can use a gas unit without gas and cause no harm to the machine. What is the purpose of a gasless machine?

Gasless only MIG sets are cheaper because they save a few parts such as the solenoid valve.

I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be that at the very bottom end there were MIG sets with live torches and even without rectifiers, so they were AC.

Gasless MIG isn't really MIG (Metal Inert Gas) coz there's no gas. it's more accurately called wirefeed welding.

Does the reverse polarity make a difference to the quality of the weld?

It's generally reckoned that you need electrode/torch +ve for gas wire and -ve for gasless (flux cored) wire, and it won't work too well the wrong way round. People were advising you to try using gasless wire on the wrong polarity because they've sometimes found it OK and there's nothing much to lose and your machine doesn't let you change polarity.

Why not just buy a gas mig and run gasless if you wish to do so?
I know you need the gasless flux wire which I'm guessing creates it's own shielding gas of sorts.

Most MIG welders using gas have the facility to alter the polarity by changing internal connections so you can use gasless wire. I assume the reason some don't is cost cutting.

Generally, flux core wire welding is sort of OK if you are stuck and have to weld outside, and haven't got an arc set. If you have a MIG set, it's a mild plus for most people to have the facility to use gasless wire properly.

 

[Sarto]

Reading here and there, I think fluxcore could be useful to weld (a little ) thicker pieces in a low power welder.

 

[Wozzaaah]

What is it you're planning on welding?
I've never tried using gasless wire in a gas welder but many people have.
I believe it's very spattery but the spatter is greatly reduced with the reversed polarity.

 

[AndyT46]

PTvor very comprehensive answer, thanks!
Wozzaaah - ultimately I am planning on putting some plate onto the sills of my little track car and maybe a few other patches that will no doubt need attention! The reason I asked initially was that when I bought the welder it came with several spools of wire, one of which is a Fc.
As I currently have zero welding experience I will I will not be going anywhere near said car. I was just wondering if it would be worth while practicing gasless with the Fc wire and whether there was any benefit to it?

On a side note, Co2 bottles, should they have a male or female thread?

 

[Richard.]

Gasless FC and dual shield FC are two totally different animals. The gasless stuff is IMO no more than a "get out of jail free" card. It does a job, it sticks metal together and will get you by till you get the solid wire set up nice with a bottle of mix.
The dual shield stuff is a gas and self shielding flux core and depending on the type (rutile,basic) has very similar properties to the equivalent electrodes. The rutile is a lovely wire for sticking in an open root vertically up under spray arc conditions. (Solid just wouldn't keep up with it)*
Flux core basic wires run very different in pos/neg polarity and the correct way would be neg for those As they are far less spattery and crisper arc. The technique is a dragging angle to keep the wire in the front of the pool and the slag behind it preventing inclusions.
* the only way a solid wire will keep up with a Fc in an open root is down hand with an STT type machine.

 

[PTvor]

Pub CO2 cylinders have an external thread

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Co2-Gas-C...17054a9&pid=100011&rk=3&rkt=7&sd=140928118609

Which you can see clearly on the picture in the ebay ad.

Argon/argon mix cylinders have an internal thread.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wiki/Setting_up_the_gas.

If you look here,

http://www.weldequip.com/regulators-gas.htm

you can see there are two sorts of connection depending on whether it's an argon or CO2 regulator.

What's to be lost by mucking about with the flux core? Bear in mind that you won't be using it with the recommended polarity and the wire might be rubbish anyway. Flux core wire seems very variable in quality and there are quite a few posts on here on that subject. So if it turns out to be a disaster it might not be down to you, but having disasters doesn't help the learning process.

If you are patching sills and doing other bodywork, I think you'll find it easier and gives better results to use 95% argon 5% CO2 or similar, rather than pure CO2. I certainly wouldn't attempt it with flux core. You may find that the solid wire you got with the machine is rubbish. Proper MIG wire is a surprisingly hi-tech product. Some of the rubbish around seems to be little more than drawn out mild steel scrap.

 

[AndyT46]

PTvor, again thanks for the reply. The reason I ask about the bottle is that I potentially have a bottle from a pub, but it has a female thread so I am confused as to what it's able to hold.

 

[PTvor]

To the best of my knowledge, pub cylinders are as in the ad I linked to.

Are you sure it's a pub cylinder? There are small 9 and 10L industrial gas cylinders.

 

[AndyT46]

I am sure it's From a pub, I cannot 100% say it was used for dispensing drink. So I'm now a tad confused.

 

[PTvor]

A picture would be useful. Perhaps someone could identify it.

It's wise to fill cylinders with the gas they were assigned for in the first place and I don't think any reputable place would do otherwise.

Adopting gas cylinders can lead to problems. Companies like BOC and Air Products have cylinders made for them and they don't sell them or give them away, they rent them out. So, the only way someone can legally possess one is if they rent it from BOC/AP. If a renter loses a cylinder, they are charged, but the cylinder still belongs to BOC/AP. There is such thing as bona fide finding a cylinder, in which case you can hand it in to BOC. Businesses go bust and a the fate of a couple of cylinders is lost in the noise, cylinders are nicked, and so on, so they can end up in private hands without a rental agreement. but if you have such a thing, you are on dodgy ground.

So if you have a cylinder and it actually belongs to a company like BOC or AP, it pays to be a little cautious.

 

[Richard.]

A picture would be useful. Perhaps someone could identify it.

It's wise to fill cylinders with the gas they were assigned for in the first place and I don't think any reputable place would do otherwise.

Adopting gas cylinders can lead to problems. Companies like BOC and Air Products have cylinders made for them and they don't sell them or give them away, they rent them out. So, the only way someone can legally possess one is if they rent it from BOC/AP. If a renter loses a cylinder, they are charged, but the cylinder still belongs to BOC/AP. There is such thing as bona fide finding a cylinder, in which case you can hand it in to BOC. Businesses go bust and a the fate of a couple of cylinders is lost in the noise, cylinders are nicked, and so on, so they can end up in private hands without a rental agreement. but if you have such a thing, you are on dodgy ground.

So if you have a cylinder and it actually belongs to a company like BOC or AP, it pays to be a little cautious.

Certainly if your offered one for sale or even for free it's best to refuse it and if you do come across one hand it back. (After you've used the contents of course)